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1

Sunday, May 18th 2008, 7:11pm

suicide order

hey. jakespear from world 3. :)

:thumbdown: a bit tired of 5 man order attack 50 man order. it has happned twice today. :thumbdown:

:thumbsup: mabye Holy War could inforce a rule that you the 2 orders fighting must have to be within a range of members :thumbsup:

this would stop all these annoying attacks.....
jakespear- AC of Gods of Destruction (world 3)

oscardog

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2

Sunday, May 18th 2008, 7:14pm

honestly i think that this is just part of the game. besides when orders start out and only have 5 members they can be stupid about that not knowing what there doing. i think that idea is realy stupid and pointless if some morons want to go running into battle and die 2 times before they hit the ground let them then they will learn not to.

3

Sunday, May 18th 2008, 7:20pm

honestly i think that this is just part of the game. besides when orders start out and only have 5 members they can be stupid about that not knowing what there doing. i think that idea is realy stupid and pointless if some morons want to go running into battle and die 2 times before they hit the ground let them then they will learn not to.

they will not learn as these people don't care if they get slaughtered or not.

it just makes the game a little unfair for the big orders. when orders first start (none suicid orders) they have no need or intention to attack a much bigger order so that would be no problem :)
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4

Sunday, May 18th 2008, 7:28pm

I fail to see why the game should be change because you don't like getting attacked. Sui-cide squads are a reasonable battle tactic. They may even defeat the larger order if they get some good mercs and volunteers.
Follow me I know the way, lemming.

5

Sunday, May 18th 2008, 7:38pm

I fail to see why the game should be change because you don't like getting attacked. Sui-cide squads are a reasonable battle tactic. They may even defeat the larger order if they get some good mercs and volunteers.

they will never defeat the larger order as they don't bother with mercs and can't even afford them.

it's not evn me getting attacked. it's my allies and everyone else
jakespear- AC of Gods of Destruction (world 3)

oscardog

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6

Sunday, May 18th 2008, 8:06pm

I fail to see why the game should be change because you don't like getting attacked. Sui-cide squads are a reasonable battle tactic. They may even defeat the larger order if they get some good mercs and voluntary
your right brute they can beet very big orders in W2 theres a 14 man order that has attacked order 3 times its size and won they have like 15 wins and 5 losses

7

Sunday, May 18th 2008, 8:12pm





I fail to see why the game should be change because you don't like getting attacked. Sui-cide squads are a reasonable battle tactic. They may even defeat the larger order if they get some good mercs and voluntary
your right brute they can beet very big orders in W2 theres a 14 man order that has attacked order 3 times its size and won they have like 15 wins and 5 losses
you fail to see my point. they are no suicid order they are an order who fight but they are NOT suicid....
jakespear- AC of Gods of Destruction (world 3)

8

Sunday, May 18th 2008, 9:35pm

idk jakespear...koa and its 65 members launched the attack on ex and its 15 members...they made a limit on how many order members you could have as a minimum to attack other orders...5...so after 5 what the hell if you wanna attack someone go for it...have a day...


my only problem is that it doesnt go the other way around....anyone can attack a 1 man order...and that to me is stupid

9

Sunday, May 18th 2008, 9:52pm

idk jakespear...koa and its 65 members launched the attack on ex and its 15 members...they made a limit on how many order members you could have as a minimum to attack other orders...5...so after 5 what the hell if you wanna attack someone go for it...have a day...


my only problem is that it doesnt go the other way around....anyone can attack a 1 man order...and that to me is stupid
yeah but i am only talking about suicid order... the thing that your talking about is a different matter
jakespear- AC of Gods of Destruction (world 3)

oscardog

Unregistered

10

Sunday, May 18th 2008, 10:29pm


idk jakespear...koa and its 65 members launched the attack on ex and its 15 members...they made a limit on how many order members you could have as a minimum to attack other orders...5...so after 5 what the hell if you wanna attack someone go for it...have a day...


my only problem is that it doesnt go the other way around....anyone can attack a 1 man order...and that to me is stupid
yeah but i am only talking about suicid order... the thing that your talking about is a different matter
i still hate this idea and think its completely pointless you shouldnt waste space in the suggestion box with this

11

Monday, May 19th 2008, 12:24am

The irony of oscardog posting about wasting space in Suggestions is amusing.

oscardog

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12

Monday, May 19th 2008, 3:45am

what world and what lvl are you?

13

Monday, May 19th 2008, 9:33am

level

i am level 42... i am order mast of Holy Knights Kingdom (HKK)
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14

Monday, May 19th 2008, 2:13pm

I would love to see something done about the suiciders.

However, I'm not sure this suggestion is the right answer. (I'm not sure it isn't--any idea that oscardog hates so much has to have something going for it....)

I can't think of any numerical limit you could set that would eliminate suiciders, without also eliminating "lean and mean" orders.

In addition to the Ex-KoA example mentioned earlier (16 vs. 64), I'm pretty sure 13-man BSU in W2 has beaten an order with about 40 people, and Nea pulled off a similar fear when they were under 15 people. In Spanish M1, 15-man LSH has beaten orders with over 60 people. With their 6-0, 15-5, 6-3, and 108-13 records, and their #1, #8, #15, and #1 highscore placements, I don't think anyone would confuse these orders with suicider squads.

A rule like "no fighting anyone 4x your size" or "any order under 15 can only fight small orders" would mean that these great victories weren't allowed. But orders as large as 14 people have kamikazed to take out allies--sometimes lean-and-mean allies as small as 20--so any rule that didn't set the limit that high wouldn't be sufficient.

Worse, there are shades of grey. For example, GGE likes to fight losing battles for xp. That doesn't make them a suicider squad. But when, 15 minutes after a Pagan order is under attack, GGE attacks that order's best ally--that does make them a suicider squad. How do you ban xp battles without banning martyr battles?

I can't think of a game-rules solution that would work. But maybe we can think of an in-game solution that would. Jake, if you're seriously interested in being part of the solution, PM me in W3.
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15

Monday, May 19th 2008, 10:00pm

I love it. What does jakespear do after posting this thread? He precipitates a mass battle along with 6 suicider attacks. And then, in the shoutbox, he says, "Don't blame me, it was my allies." Then he denies that he was part of the plan. Then he says that he's talked to KoA about the plan ("UG i have told him this. this was not part of the plan...") And then denies that he was part of it again.

And his wonderful allies are mercing ROME's allies against them, to tie in with another problem that Jake agreed should be fixed.


--deleted by admin ------- If you don't want suicidesquads, don't use them, don't profit from them, don't involve yourself in plans using them, and don't ally with orders who use them.

I suspect the only way to get rid of suicidesquads is to ban the leaders of HKK, MM, MM2, KoA, and GoD from the game. ----------------------
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oscardog

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16

Monday, May 19th 2008, 11:06pm

falco your right, except i dont think they should be shot. i think its just part of the game whether we like it or not there is suicid'e squads

17

Tuesday, May 20th 2008, 10:14pm

I suspect the only way to get rid of suicidesquads is to ban the leaders of HKK, MM, MM2, KoA, and GoD from the game. Or maybe have them shot.
falcotron i do not support the idea of suicidesquads. We do not support merc stealing either. If GoD had any knowledge of this then we would not have taken part in the battle. Our choice was between MM & KoA and we decided to go with KoA because it was against ROME.
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18

Tuesday, May 20th 2008, 10:59pm

I suspect the only way to get rid of suicidesquads is to ban the leaders of HKK, MM, MM2, KoA, and GoD from the game. Or maybe have them shot.
falcotron i do not support the idea of suicidesquads. We do not support merc stealing either.
Yes, you do. If sending in your members to help an order that admitted on the shoutbox to planning the suicidesquad attacks and intentionally stealing the other side's mercs isn't supporting them, what exactly would count as supporting them?

GoD invented the suicidesquad tactic. Ever since they got their first victory, and FEAR's first loss, by creating two 5-man orders to take out FEAR's two biggest allies, they've done it continuously. If the new leadership has turned over a new leaf, supporting the orders who continue to do this is not the way to show it.

Quoted

If GoD had any knowledge of this then we would not have taken part in the battle.
KoA admitted this on the SB, and it was openly discussed for hours. At least two of your members were involved in the public discussion as soon as the attacks were launched, trying to justify KoA's use of the suicidesquads and immediate hiring of Rie and Non Holy. And KoA used suicidesquads just a day earlier in their loss against Ex. In fact, when was the last time KoA fought a battle without suicidesquads?

Frankly, if you and Corwin were the only two people in W3 who didn't know what was going on, that's your own fault.

As for your other allies: I know for a fact that HKK was involved. Although jakespear vigorously denied that they had anything to do with the planning, or even advance knowledge of it, he also said in the SB, "UG i have told him this. this was not part of the plan..." and to grinder, "i told them your [NWO] werent part of the plan." He also said, "i didnt do this, my two allies did," which I assume mean that MM were also involved.

Well, at least MM and KoA weren't posting on the forum about how suicidesquads are bad and have to be stopped while they were in the planning session. So maybe only jake needs to be shot.

Quoted

Our choice was between MM & KoA
No, you had the choice to refuse to support them. If you truly didn't support suicidesquads and merc stealing, that's what you would have chosen.
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19

Tuesday, May 20th 2008, 11:01pm

I don't believe there is any decent in game solution to stop the sui.cide battle tactics. As lame and dishonorable as they are it is still a valid tactic in game.

However as a community of players we can make orders think twice about it. From what I gathered watching the shout box before and after the battle a lot of players think it stinks. If all the orders currently allied to KOA would cancel their alliance with them it would send a message. (I single out KOA because their OM admitted in the SB that he masterminded this last one)

Yes I'm talking to you BOH and GOD. You honored your alliance this time and joined the battle on the KOA side and that is commendable, but that doesn't mean your obligated to continue. If you guys really don't support this tactic and want no part of it - put the words into action and cancel your alliance with KOA and any other order that does this in the future.

The same goes for Pagans and Saracens - if any of your allies act in a manner you 'say' you don't support, then don't support it. End the alliance. It is a matter of integrity - say what you do and do what you say.

oscardog

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20

Tuesday, May 20th 2008, 11:23pm

I don't believe there is any decent in game solution to stop the sui.cide battle tactics. As lame and dishonorable as they are it is still a valid tactic in game.

However as a community of players we can make orders think twice about it. From what I gathered watching the shout box before and after the battle a lot of players think it stinks. If all the orders currently allied to KOA would cancel their alliance with them it would send a message. (I single out KOA because their OM admitted in the SB that he masterminded this last one)

Yes I'm talking to you BOH and GOD. You honored your alliance this time and joined the battle on the KOA side and that is commendable, but that doesn't mean your obligated to continue. If you guys really don't support this tactic and want no part of it - put the words into action and cancel your alliance with KOA and any other order that does this in the future.

The same goes for Pagans and Saracens - if any of your allies act in a manner you 'say' you don't support, then don't support it. End the alliance. It is a matter of integrity - say what you do and do what you say.
yeah thats a good solution. except i think that like 2-3 weeks after you delete you alliance with them you reestablish it and warn them that if they ever do it agian you alliances will be permantly deleted

21

Tuesday, May 20th 2008, 11:32pm

yeah thats a good solution. except i think that like 2-3 weeks after you delete you alliance with them you reestablish it and warn them that if they ever do it agian you alliances will be permantly deleted


You're a lot more forgiving than me. I would cancel the alliance and then get my members to merc against them every chance they had until an apology was issued to the offended orders.

Not saying I expect BOH and GOD to do that 'cause they're not me. I do expect them to either cancel the alliance or quit saying they don't support tactics like this and admit they do.

oscardog

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22

Tuesday, May 20th 2008, 11:38pm

im not very forgiving i just want to give them a second chance.

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23

Tuesday, May 20th 2008, 11:50pm

I don't believe there is any decent in game solution to stop the sui.cide battle tactics. As lame and dishonorable as they are it is still a valid tactic in game.
When I said "in-game solution" I meant exactly the kind of thing you're proposing, but going even farther. The solution is for the honorable orders (and the ones that want to look honorable) to ostracize and isolate the culprits.

Quoted

The same goes for Pagans and Saracens - if any of your allies act in a manner you 'say' you don't support, then don't support it. End the alliance. It is a matter of integrity - say what you do and do what you say.
I asked ROME, as a first step toward ending this problem, to talk to PayBack and try to get them to stop suiciding BoH in every battle. They did. And it worked. There were no suicidesquads attacking the Christians in the battles. So, our side has already acted unilaterally, and the other side got their cheap victory. It would be nice to believe that this would satisfy them and they'd stop doing it--but, judging by past history, and by the emails I've been receiving, all it's going to do is make the other side even more devoted to their cheap, sleazy tactics.

But I'd also like to point out that there's a very big difference between one autonomous order that does what they do out of anger and are nearly impossible for the Pagans and Saracens to control, and six or more orders that act under the direction of the large Christian orders and are an integral part of their plans. It sounds very fair-minded to demand that both sides stop equally, but everyone knows that KoA, HKK, MM, and at least until recently GoD are the heard of the problem.

Frankly, if GoD and BoH would stop supporting orders that use suicidesquads and steal mercs, the problem would go away overnight. And if it didn't, I would gladly work with them to do whatever else is needed to stop it.
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24

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 1:06am

Falco I truly did not read the SB on this issue. We had no role to play in the planning of any of the battles. None of the council members knew about this either. We decided to wait until we got a hitlist from our allies and then decide in which battle to take part. BoH asked us whether we would take part in the battle with KoA and we agreed.
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25

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 1:23am

I know GoD weren't involved in planning this, and neither were BoH.

But there's no way you couldn't have known that there were 6 supporting kamikaze attacks on the board. Or did you really thing that FUG thought that could defeat IWL and just happened to attack us at the same time as 7 other battles?

And as a leader, you should know what your own members know--as I said, at least two of them were involved in the SB conversation after KoA admitted to it.

Most importantly, if you really are against suicidesquads, and your allies actually deceived you into helping them do something that you believe is wrong, you should be angry with them, not circling the wagons in their defense. They're making you complicit in their sleaze, and you're accepting it.

I know that if one of my allies used me that way, they'd have a lot of 'splaining to do, Lucy.

In fact, that did happen to me. When PHD in W2 tried to use WoL dishonorably, we did support them in their battle--they were allies, after all--but then immediately demanded an explanation and a promise of better behavior in the future. When they gave us nothing, we dropped the alliance, put their leaders on rotation, and volunteered against them in every battle until their leaders abandoned PHD and went to other orders. GoD is if anything stronger than WoL as an individual order, so if we could get away with that, so can you.

You don't have to go quite as far as we did, but continuing to support them and defend their actions makes your principles meaningless.

Meanwhile, if you really don't know the history of suicidesquad attacks, and GoD's central part in it, I'll have Kyle or Robert send you a PM in W4. You should know the order you inherited and what it stood for if you really want to change it.
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26

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 2:27am

We had a problem when KoA attacked Ex even though we did support them in that battle. A message was sent to KoA. We are deciding our next course of action with regard to the stealing of mercs and suicidesquads.
Falco lately in W3 I have seen so many battles which can only be described as madness. The attack on IWL would have fallen in this category.
Can you pm me the name of the members involved so I can follow it up. Lady Corwin, the council and I are fully aware of the legacy that we inherited in GoD. The current council have been doing our best to change this. However no matter what we do and what our approach is our past keeps being brought back. There is no use in beating a dead horse.
AC of GoD (W3)

27

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 3:00am

attacking a bigger order does have a point to it

Sain Cai

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28

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 7:05am

Well whats so wrong with a suicidesquadr taking out a huge order in battle? Really what use is a 65 man order anyways? You are limited in your fights without looking like a bully and can easily be taken out of reinforcing allies.

Best thing to do is split the huge order up into a parent and child order, thus allowing yourself to attack smaller orders, while retaining your other order as help.

29

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 7:17pm

sorry

sorry for posting this in the Forum....

i admit now that it's just part of the game and a good tactic to use.

Raidon... i was involved very much with the big battle plan against ROME. couldn't help myself in the genious plan
jakespear- AC of Gods of Destruction (world 3)

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30

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 7:36pm

I guess I am confused why this is considered a bad tactic..

If you are going to war, wouldn't you want to use anything and everything that will benefit your side to win? Can't you in return take out one of their allies?

You can march into war with bright red uniforms banging a drum saying we're coming to get you cuz we outnumber you.. but a small group hiding in the trees can take out the army as it's marching to the battle. It's survival.

If I am missing something, please let me know.

World 4

31

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 7:40pm

it's just people would rather a normal fight were everyone can fight and the better men win. they also find it a dirty tactic and almost like cheating.
jakespear- AC of Gods of Destruction (world 3)

the grinder

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32

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 8:23pm

Some old timers might just wanna have one fight at a time and each fight is just about exp gain, and it's all about pure muscle competition. :)

Old timers might have forgotten tactics on planning, spying, cooperation and coordination, so that the weaker ones can bring down the stronger ones. So even though they may not haul much or even none, but the joy of victory for defeating a big order is very rewarding. Although I hated it when I was sui-cided from mercing, but I am proud to be in W3 where the game play is advanced to another level. :)

If there's a strategy (like sui-ciding) then there are always more than one counter-strategies, then there are counter counter-strategies, and that's how a game should be evolved, instead of the dying worlds in W2 and W1. :D

So W3 battles are very challenging and exciting, and it's very good for mercenary business and hence the whole point of this post. ;)

p.s., as I reread this, I saw the big order posters were against this because they are the easy sui-cide targets and their reputations and finances were in the line of fire. But as a merc (a middle man) I am, I have no objections against it after thinking thru the pros and cons, a tatic is a good tatic as long as it achieves your plans.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "the grinder" (May 21st 2008, 8:42pm)


Sir Gellan

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33

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 8:40pm

I left HKK, when I knew they were involved in this. I dont want to be associated with an order that works with suicidesquad tactics, or supports the use of them. Also the fact that in HKK's last battle against FF, neither the OM or AC said anything about it... what kind of OM and AC declares a battle, and then doesnt tell the rest of the order via PM?

I am glad that suicidesquads are extremely rare in W1 and W2, but in W3 it is getting ridiculous... I only recently have started playing W3 seriously to try and resolve the problems regarding suicidesquads, and bring honour from the other 2 worlds to W3 as well. Something needs to be done.

Sir Gellan

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34

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 8:40pm

I seem to have double-posted...

35

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 9:23pm


I left HKK, when I knew they were involved in this. I dont want to be associated with an order that works with suicidesquad tactics, or supports the use of them. Also the fact that in HKK's last battle against FF, neither the OM or AC said anything about it... what kind of OM and AC declares a battle, and then doesnt tell the rest of the order via PM?

hey mate. you left HKK about a month ago. we only were involved with suicidesquads attacks 2 days ago. you story does not add up. also i always send a mail and even if 1 time i forgot because i was so busy setting it up. an order player should always look at the battle page frequently.

And if you have something to say about HKK. say it to my face!
jakespear- AC of Gods of Destruction (world 3)

Sir Gellan

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36

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 9:33pm




I left HKK, when I knew they were involved in this. I dont want to be associated with an order that works with suicidesquad tactics, or supports the use of them. Also the fact that in HKK's last battle against FF, neither the OM or AC said anything about it... what kind of OM and AC declares a battle, and then doesnt tell the rest of the order via PM?

hey mate. you left HKK about a month ago. we only were involved with suicidesquads attacks 2 days ago. you story does not add up. also i always send a mail and even if 1 time i forgot because i was so busy setting it up. an order player should always look at the battle page frequently.

And if you have something to say about HKK. say it to my face!
No... I left HKK yesterday, not a month ago... I wasnt even playing on W3 much more than a month ago.

37

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 9:36pm

well whatever. you could have told me your reasons that you left.

i'm sure you left ages ago. i could have sworn on it.
jakespear- AC of Gods of Destruction (world 3)

38

Wednesday, May 21st 2008, 10:29pm

Strange how the numerically superior faith has to resort to tactics like this to win.

39

Thursday, May 22nd 2008, 12:12am

Strange how the numerically superior faith has to resort to tactics like this to win.
in world 3 there are alot more high level pagans than christians. a tactic is a tactic.
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40

Thursday, May 22nd 2008, 3:52am

Next some one will complain that they were attacked with weapons. Warfare is always changing you need to adapt to survive large orders are fat for attack. Maybe a large order should break up into five man teams and operate that way. imagine 11 five man teams working in unison, very dangerous.
Follow me I know the way, lemming.

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