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  • "falcotron" started this thread

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1

Friday, March 28th 2008, 5:49am

What to buy, and when

People keep asking me for advice on what to buy, because all of the hints that 20 other people and I have written are scattered in 100 different places.

I want to get one good post that I can point people to. I'll edit this if people convince me that any of it is wrong.

Level 6 Weapon: Cross sword (+7/+1, 2000gp, premium)
Level 8 Horse: Welsh (3-3-3, 3000gp, premium), which you will eventually raise to 34-34-34
Level 10: STOP HERE
Level 10 Weapon: Fouchard (+12/+0, 4000gp, premium)
Level 6 Armor: Chain 1 (+3/+0/-1, 1000gp)
Pick an order, if you plan to be in one.
Stats 22-20-20-20-20
Horse 20-20-20
(These are absolute minimums. Read about camping if you want to know more.)
(This may take longer on each new world.)
CONTINUE LEVELING
Level 15 Shield: Copper fighting shield (+4/+0, 2000gp)
Level 15 Helmet: Horned helm (+3/+0, 1500gp)
Level 16 Weapon: War scythe (+17/-2, 6500gp)
Level 18 Armor: Leather 2 (+10/+0/+0, 5000gp)
Level 20 Horse: Einsiedler (9-13-13, 15000gp, premium), eventually to 45-42-45
Level 20 Helmet: Pilleus (+5/+0/+0, 3000gp, premium)
Level 22 Weapon: Corrugated sword (+22/+1, 10000gp, premium)
Level 28 Helmet: Cabasset (+7/+0/+0, 4500gp)
Level 30 Weapon: Dragon sword (+29/+1, 22000gp, premium)
Level 30 Shield: Iron fighting shield (+7/+0, 4500gp)
Level 31 Helmet: Tentorii (+8/+0/+0, 5500gp, premium)
Level 32 Armor: Chain 3 (+22/+0/-1, 14000gp)
Level 33 Horse: Anglo-Norman (18-25-25, 40000gp), eventually to 53-49-53
Level 33 Residence: Start raising it now, with the goal of reaching 20 by level 41
Level 38 Weapon: Gladeus (+34/+1, 30000gp, premium)
Level 41 Helmet: Masked Helm (+11/+0/+0, 8500gp)
Level 41 Wall: Start raising the wall now, but don't worry about it too much
Level 42 Armor: Leather 4 (+30/+0/+0, 24000gp)
Level 44 Weapon: Blood Thumb (+42/+1, 42000gp, premium)
Level 45 Shield: Steel fighting shield (+10/+0, 6500gp)
Level 47 Helmet: Spineus (+13/+0/+0, 13000gp)
Level 50 Horse: Achal-Tekkiner (28-35-35, 80000gp, premium), eventually to 79-72-79

There are some intermediate purchases that are worth doing if you find them used at a good price (or find yourself holding a ton of cash), such as the snake spear. There are also reasonable alternatives if you don't get the cash together in time. For example, if you reach level 39 without a gladeus, wait for the peaked beast at 40.

Most weapons and armor are worth buying 2 levels early if you find them used. Shields and helmets are worth buying only 1 level ahead. You can go a little farther if you're leveling fast, if you get a great deal, etc., but not too much.

Horses, you can buy much farther ahead, since the penalties are so easily offset by the benefits. If you can get a level-23 Arab at level 17, ignore the list and go for it.

For the horse, there are many more options. See the thread linked below.

For more on horses, see http://forum.holy-war.de/board/wbb_en/in…d&threadID=2056
For more on stat balance, see http://forum.holy-war.de/board/wbb_en/in…d&threadID=2849
For more on stat average/level, see http://forum.holy-war.de/board/wbb_en/in…d&threadID=2791
For more on differences between worlds, see http://forum.holy-war.de/board/wbb_en/in…d&threadID=4264
For more on weapons, see http://forum.holy-war.de/board/wbb_en/in…d&threadID=3082
For more on houses, see http://forum.holy-war.de/board/wbb_en/in…d&threadID=3873
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This post has been edited 6 times, last edit by "falcotron" (Apr 14th 2008, 5:36pm)


Sain Cai

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2

Friday, March 28th 2008, 6:24am

Residence depends on your playing style. I goto work in all offline time, so I may be at the house for an hour or 2 max. Most of my D reports are when I am working, thus eliminating a 20 residence and 10 wall.

I suggest leveling to 30-30-30-20-20 (Str-Att-Def-Agi-Sta) before hitting lvl 11. Horse should be near 30-30-20. It will take time, but you will be better prepared for it. I would also shop for equipmnt 2-5 levels above you. You will take a hit for each level it is higher then you, but most equip is worth the upgrade.

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Friday, March 28th 2008, 8:50am

Residence depends on your playing style. I goto work in all offline time, so I may be at the house for an hour or 2 max. Most of my D reports are when I am working, thus eliminating a 20 residence and 10 wall.

A level-20 house heals 410/hour. This means I usually come back to W1 after 9 hours to 100% health, despite as many as three defense reports. A smaller house is almost useless (e.g., a level-12 heals only 154, which isn't enough to make a difference). So, start the house pretty late, and aim to complete it as soon as you start spending on it. (I forget how I got the numbers 33 and 41, actually, but they seem about right.)

The wall is almost useless at any size, which is why I suggested starting it only after the house is done, and not worrying about it too much.

Quoted

I suggest leveling to 30-30-30-20-20 (Str-Att-Def-Agi-Sta) before hitting lvl 11. Horse should be near 30-30-20. It will take time, but you will be better prepared for it.

The numbers I gave are the absolute minimum you should try to get away with when crossing to level 11. I'll edit the post to make that clear.

But you can usefully camp for much longer than that you're suggesting at level 10. The better campers have all of their stats in the mid 30s, their next few gear upgrades pre-purchased, and a house to at least 10 before they hit level 11.

A guide to camping would be a completely different article--many of your purchases will be different (e.g., a used Rotaller becomes a great deal instead of pointless).

But, at the risk of getting completely off-track, I think you're emphasizing the wrong stats, especially for a camper. Att means your swings hit more often, and Def provides damage reduction, but with a massive level difference it won't help much at all, so these are the least important stats for campers. Also, Def will be dramatically improved by your over-level gear, so it's even less important. Meanwhile, Sta influences how many of the swings in each round you get to be the attacker for, and Agi helps you avoid the enemy's swings, so those two stats will prevent you from being hit in the first place, which will definitely help you. And both of these will be reduced by your over-level gear. So, I'd put the same stats money (actually a little less) into 30-24-20-28-30. And for the horse, I'd put the low number in Def again.

Quoted

I would also shop for equipmnt 2-5 levels above you. You will take a hit for each level it is higher then you, but most equip is worth the upgrade.

I pretty much said that, but having solid numbers is much better than just saying "a few" as I did. I'll edit the post.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "falcotron" (Mar 28th 2008, 9:23am)


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Friday, March 28th 2008, 9:05am

If you plan on camping for an extended period, here's how I'd modify the above.

Whenever you see used gear that may be useful in the future (which includes weapons I'd normally skip--highlander sword, lance, etc.), buy it. You're not going to want to equip a snake spear at level 9, but you can buy it now to use later. (But still don't buy anything that's just a bad deal in the first place, like the morningstar.)

Start increasing your residence while camping. Even a level 10 is useful at this level--that 110/hour means that you'll be healing up almost 9-10hp during the 5-minute wait between attacks, which is as much as most defenders are likely to do to you, so you will never have to use a single elixir. (But still put the wall off until much, much later.)

Don't increase your Welsh too much. Instead, keep watching the stalls (or negotiating with people) until you can buy a much higher-level horse, and stat that one.

If you can hit level 11 riding a Brabant at 35-40-40, wielding a highlander sword, with your purchases queued up to level 26, you can start racing for levels like mad, or you can spend all of your income on stats and keep the lead you started with.
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Saturday, March 29th 2008, 4:19am

I have a question. What're the gold costs for leveling your residence? I'm primarily focusing on making gold off attacking, so I wanted to see if leveling the residence early so I can heal in-between fights would be worth it.

6

Saturday, March 29th 2008, 4:57am

You can use this formulae for housing:

Regeneration points per hour: 10 + (house level)^2.
Price: {(house level)*5}^2.

So, for example, the maximum house (level 20) costs 10k, and heals 410 pts/hr.

~ The Enlighten Ignorant ~

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Saturday, March 29th 2008, 12:06pm

Healing 110hp/hour means you get 9hp back during the 5-minute delay after each attack. At level 10, this means you can pretty much stay at full health forever, without spending an elixir. Since it only costs 100 + ... + 2500 = 9625, this is easily affordable for a camper. But too much beyond that is a waste, unless you're staying there for a long time and want to pre-buy everything possible.

Later in the game, this healing is almost worthless--you'll either lose 100hp+ or 0 in each fight--but 410 is pretty handy. That means you can do one risky attack for every 3 that you try, and again never have to use an elixir. So you'll eventually want a 20. But this costs 100 + ... + 10000 = 71750, which is quite a bit--roughly in the cost range of the gear you'll be buying in your high 30s and low 40s.

There was some calculation I did that convinced me that level 41 is the ideal time to finally reach level 20, but I can't remember what it was.
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Saturday, March 29th 2008, 6:48pm

I don't know Falcotron, 72k is a lot of gold and I think it would be more beneficial to spend this on stats rather than your residence. But then again, I am like Sain Cai in that I work when I am not online playing, so my residence is mostly useless. Also, depending on your level working for an hour may heal you more than staying at home for an hour. Now at level 28 I get 180 gold per hour, so I can buy two baptised potions and heal 200 life points. I have my residence at level 8 so I get +74 life points per hour, so I would have to sit and do nothing for two and a half hours to get the same amount of healing as I would by working for one hour. Now if I had a level 20 residence I would heal the same amount in only half an hour, but I think that the cost of 72k is much too large to be economical. Also, by level 41 you are probably making about 400 or so gold per hour working (not sure of exact amount), so you can buy 4,5 baptised potions per hour and heal 450 life points.

So in the conclusion, I think working allows you to heal more than staying in your residence. The defense bonus may be useful in a battle, but I still think the high cost is not worth it, and I would much rather raise all of my stats a few points.

9

Saturday, March 29th 2008, 7:33pm

Invest on a house strictly for the healing between 1vs1 attack. For a player who doesn't attack often and mostly work to make $$, house is totally useless just as the wall. The most useful period for the having a mansion is when you're not a very high level players yet (when your char's income from work per hr is less than hauling from attack per hr). For me, obviously I value my house greatly since it keeps me from wasting $$ on elixirs since I attack often. So decide before upgrading the house what type of player you are now and will be in the future. Oh, campers will obviously want a big house once the hovering stage is done and the mad dash to level stage starts. For campers that don't wan't to level quick after graduating, then the need of housing once again determined by the type of playing style.

Having said all the above, I'd still say in the long run having spent 72k for a house will pay for itself eventually, no matter what your playing style is and will be.

~ The Enlighten Ignorant ~

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Saturday, March 29th 2008, 11:15pm

Puffster: At level 41, you're making 500gp/hour, which pays for 600hp of healing. But the house gives you 410hp while you're hauling. Unless you can't get 200gp from 12 attacks, that's a better deal.

There are some people who stop hauling at level 40; for those people, the house may not be worth buying. But for anyone else, it is.
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Sunday, March 30th 2008, 1:54am

Puffster: At level 41, you're making 500gp/hour, which pays for 600hp of healing. But the house gives you 410hp while you're hauling. Unless you can't get 200gp from 12 attacks, that's a better deal.

I am non premium and the chances of getting 200gp from 4 attacks is not very good. But I think I understand your reasoning better now that you put it like that, and maybe it isn't such a bad idea especially for premium players or people that do a lot of hauling.

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Sunday, March 30th 2008, 3:41am

If you join the right order, you should be able to average more than 50gp/hit, especially if you're only doing 4 of them. But I know what you mean. Overall, it's probably not worth the cost for you.
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Sunday, March 30th 2008, 4:29am

Does anyone know a site that lists all of the horses, weapons, shields, and armours in the game?
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Sunday, March 30th 2008, 4:48am

Nobody's allowed to talk about that site--but I'm sure someone who's won honor and glory in the Easter contest will find all kinds of interesting things in his in-game mailbox that should make up for that.
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Monday, March 31st 2008, 8:35am

I've been thinking about Sain Cai's suggestion of buying 5 levels ahead, and I no longer think it's a good idea to go that far.

The increased bonuses of 5-level-higher gear aren't worth the penalties until in every case you look at.

Most weapons don't become a good deal until 2 or 3 levels early. Armor, 2 levels early. Shields, 1 level early. Helmets, 0 to 1 level early.

For example: Compare leather 3 (level 30 +20/-0/-0) to hardened chain 2 (level 25, +15/-1/-2). At level 25, the leather is +15/-5/-5, which is obviously inferior. Even at 27, +17/-3/-3 is still 1 point worse. At 28, +18/-2/-2 is finally 2 points better (although arguably it's not, as agi and sta are worth more than def).

Early on, when you level pretty quickly, it may be worth going a little farther ahead. As leveling slows down, this stops being true.

Of course any time you can get a great deal on something you're going to want in the future, buy it. But if you can keep the old gear until the new gear becomes better, do.
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Sunday, April 13th 2008, 8:18pm

What do you think about skipping the war scythe and buying a corrugated off the stalls at lvl 18 or lvl 19. It is at that point where the corrugated sword becomes better than having the war scythe.
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Sunday, April 13th 2008, 11:23pm

Definitely. As I said, most weapons are worth buying about 3 levels early. The corrugated sword might be worth buying even earlier, because it's something like 8 levels from the last penalty-free weapon.

If you're pretty sure you'll be able to get a used corrugated at lvl 18, skip the scythe. If you're in W1, in an order full of people in their mid/high 20s, I'd say you've got a 90%+ chance. If you're in W4 now and approaching lvl 16, you've got a 0% chance.
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Monday, April 14th 2008, 10:08pm

I will have too agree with Falco. If you are just starting out it is easy to camp at a lower level raise stats and acquire equipment with bargain deals then when all is said and done just shoot through the levels.

You will rarely catch the top tier in level but that tends to work in your benefit. For when it comes time for them to sell you get the equipment at basement prices and at an early level. This allows you to concentrate on stats. Perfect example is my brother... he camped till he had a gold haul of 170k had great stats and equipment that will last him until he needed his level 30 gear. This is about a month of camping. When he was ready to shoot up in level he attained level 30 in 3 weeks... You know how long it took all us vets to make level 30? A little shy of 2 months. (ok this is some envy talking here lol)

But in a new world this list is great just for the simple fact to stay competitive. I find myself changing out weapons every 2 levels just to keep the edge... thankfully they are only 2k apart in price or that would tend to get expensive.

Oh and thanks to the tavern what a wonderful concept :thumbup:

Mangle

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Tuesday, April 15th 2008, 12:52pm

Mangle's right.

In both W1 and W2, I'm level 43. In W1, this is 6 levels behind the top people; in W2, it was briefly 1 level behind (now back up to 2).

What that means is that in W1, I buy all of my gear 1-3 levels early at near-minimum price (and sometimes I can even buy the next upgrade in advance so I can concentrate on stats for a couple days), while in W2 (and W3 and W4) I buy my gear from the blacksmith. It's also easier to sell my gear in W1, because there are many more people a few levels behind me than in W2.
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Tuesday, April 15th 2008, 1:05pm

Not to agree with Mangle even more, but... well, I do agree again:
I find myself changing out weapons every 2 levels just to keep the edge...

I think my list is pretty much right up to level 30, but beyond that it probably is worth changing weapons more often than the list shows.

I forgot that leveling gets slower; if you're going to spend 2 months getting to level 30, and another 2 months to level 42, you can get away with upgrading as many times during those 12 levels as you did in the first 30.

And if you're up at the top, you need every edge you can get--otherwise, you're not really at the top. So, I may buy both the gladius and the peaked beast, and possibly the berserker axe as well as the blood thumb, in W3, even though I didn't bother with all 4 in W2. (I think I'll still skip the +38/+7 assassin knife at level 48, however.)

If you're 10 levels behind the lead but climbing fast, you're not going to be competitive with the top people even with the best possible gear, and you're going to be very competitive with the slowpokes you're passing even without it, so you may not need to upgrade so fast. On the other hand, you should be getting your gear in advance, and cheap, so it might be worth it anyway.

Quoted

thankfully they are only 2k apart in price or that would tend to get expensive.

That doesn't last much longer. After level 50, that becomes 5K for a while, then it jumps around, averaging about 3K, then it jumps up to 10K at level 76, and then it just goes nuts. But you'll be leveling even slower, and making even more at work, so maybe it works out.
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Saturday, April 19th 2008, 5:10pm

If you're getting cheap hand-me-downs:

Remember, you ideally want horses 2-8 levels in advance, weapons 2-4 levels, armor 1-2 levels, shields 1 level, helmets usually not at all. But you can still buy them even earlier and keep using the old one.

Here's a list of additional things that you should definitely get if you see them cheap:

Level 14 Weapon: Highlander sword (+14/+0, 5500gp) or Nathar saber (+13/+1, 5500gp)
Level 18 Weapon: Lance (+19/-2, 7500gp)
Level 20 Weapon: Two-handed sword (+20/+0, 8000gp)
Level 20 Armor: Chain 2 (+12/-0/-1, 6000gp)
Level 24 Helmet: Iron brim (+6/-0/-0, 3500gp)
Level 26 Weapon: Snake spear (+24/+1, 17000gp)
Level 30 Armor: Leather 3 (+20/-0/-0, 12000gp)
Level 37 Helmet: Visor helm (+12/-1/-1, 7500gp)
Level 40 Weapon: Peaked beast (+36/+1, 35000gp)
Level 44 Armor: Chain 4 (+32/-0/-1, 26000gp)
Level 46 Armor: Hardened chain 4 (+35/-1/-2, 28000gp)
Level 48 Weapon: Sickle Axe (+47/-0, 48000gp)

Possible:

Level 34 Weapon: Thresher (+32/-2, 26000gp)--not bad, but hard to sell
Level 46 Weapon: Warpike (+47/-2, 44000gp)--if you can get a sickle axe, it's just as good at any lower level
Level 46 Helm: Armet (+12/-0/-0, 11000gp)--only one level to the spineus, but maybe worth it for 80%
Most other armors: Negatives added to level penalties make them bad choices early, but often worth it at-level for 80%
Most other horses: Upgrade around the levels listed or slightly earlier, but get a horse up to 8 levels higher when you do.
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Tuesday, April 29th 2008, 9:14am

OK, if you work out each piece of gear's total stat bonuses/penalties (HP beats Agi beats Sta beats Def for ties), at each level, including over-level penalties, here's the most effective gear.

So, this doesn't take into account whether you can find them used, how good of a deal you get, how good of a deal they are for the money in the first place, how easily you'll be able to sell them, premium requirements, etc. All of that is taken into account at least subjectively in the list I posted earlier, which skips a lot of these upgrades. This list is just straight from the spreadsheet.

It also doesn't consider how quickly you can grow into the levels. If you're within a day or so of level 40, definitely get the blood thumb rather than the peaked beast. If you can get a cross sword at level 1, go for it--you'll be level 4 by the end of the day anyway. This extra slack is why I said to go 2-4 levels early for weapons, 1-2 for armor, 0-1 for shields (but not helmets; they're just not worth going ahead at all unless you get a great deal).

WEAPONS (0-3 levels early)
01-01: butter knife (+1/+0, level 1)
02-02: dagger (+2/+0, level 2)
03-03: short sword (+2/+1, level 3)
04-07: cross sword (+7/+1, level 6)
08-12: fouchard (+12/+0, level 10)
13-15: Highlander sword (+14/+0, level 14)
16-16: war scythe (+17/-2, level 16)
17-18: lance (+19/-2, level 18)
19-24: corrugated sword (+22/+1, level 22)
25-27: snake spear (+24/+1, level 26)
28-33: dragon sword (+29/+1, level 30)
34-35: thresher (+32/-2, level 34)
36-36: battle hammer (+34/-3, level 36) (thanks to Noble again for the correction)
37-37: gladius (+34/+1, level 38)
38-40: peaked beast (+36/+1, level 40)
41-44: blood thumb (+42/+1, level 44)
45-47: warpike (+47/-2, level 46) (thanks to Noble for catching this)
48-48: sickle axe (+47/+0, level 48)
49-50: Scottish sword (+48/+1, level 50)

ARMOR (0-1s level early)
01-02: none
03-05: leather 1 (+1/-0/-0, level 3)
06-08: chain 1 (+3/-0/-1, level 6)
09-11: hardened chain 1 (+6/-1/-2, level 9)
12-13: scale 1 (+8/-2/-2, level 12)
14-14: plate 1 (+10/-2/-3, level 14)
15-16: magnificent 1 (+13/-2/-3, level 16)
17-19: leather 2 (+10/-0/-0, level 18)
20-21: chain 2 (+12/-0/-1, level 20)
22-23: hardened chain 2 (+15/-1/-2, level 22)
24-25: scale 2 (+17/-2/-2, level 24)
26-26: plate 2 (+19/-2/-3, level 26)
27-28: magnificent 2 (+22/-2/-3, level 28)
29-31: leather 3 (+20/-0/-0, level 30)
32-33: chain 3 (+22/-0/-1, level 32)
34-35: hardened chain 3 (+25/-1/-2, level 34)
36-37: scale 3 (+27/-2/-2, level 36)
38-38: plate 3 (+29/-2/-3, level 38)
39-40: magnificent 3 (+32/-2/-3, level 40)
41-43: leather 4 (+30/-0/-0, level 42)
44-45: chain 4 (+32/-0/-1, level 44)
46-47: hardened chain 4 (+35/-1/-2, level 46)
48-49: scale 4 (+37/-2/-2, level 48)
50-50: plate 4 (+39/-2/-3, level 50)

SHIELDS (0 levels early)
01-03: none
04-05: wood fighting shield (+1/-0, level 4)
06-11: wood eckshield (+3/-1, level 6)
12-14: copper buckler (+4/-1, level 12)
15-23: copper fighting shield (+4/+0, level 15)
24-26: copper magnificent shield (+6/-1, level 24)
27-29: iron buckler (+7/-1, level 27)
30-35: iron fighting shield (+7/-0, level 30)
36-38: iron Norman shield (+10/-2, level 36)
39-44: iron magnificent shield (+10/-1, level 39)
45-50: steel fighting shield (+10/-0, level 45)
51-53: steel Normal shield (+12/-1, level 51)

HELMETS (0 levels early)
01-04: none
05-09: Norman helm (+1/-0/-0, level 5)
10-14: leather helm (+2/-0/-0, level 10)
15-19: horned helm (+3/-0/-0, level 15)
20-23: pileus (+5/-0/-0, level 20)
24-27: iron brim (+6/-0/-0, level 24)
28-30: cabasset (+7/-0/-0, level 28)
31-32: tentorii (+8/-0/-0, level 31)
33-36: Crusader helm (+12/-2/-1, level 33)
37-40: visor helm (+12/-1/-1, level 37)
41-45: masked helm (+11/-0/-0, level 41)
46-46: armet (+12/-0/-0, level 46)
47-49: spineus (+13/-0/-0, level 47)
50-52: Bugle helm (+14/-0/-0, level 50)
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This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "falcotron" (Jan 31st 2009, 4:31am)


Sain Cai

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Tuesday, April 29th 2008, 5:48pm

I would still suggest not getting any gear until level 6-8, and spend it all on stats.

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Tuesday, April 29th 2008, 9:50pm

I would still suggest not getting any gear until level 6-8, and spend it all on stats.
Well, yeah, everybody knows that. That's why I explained that this is notthe list of gear to actually buy, just the list of the gear that would actually be the most effective at any given level, and I gave all the reasons why these are different.

On the other hand, if you've decided to tixx up at level 1, and you see a used cross sword cheap, just grab it then. Why not?
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Thursday, August 14th 2008, 6:17pm

So here's a question, then (and I'd love to see a full-blown discussion on the economics of Holy War altogether)...

How do you base your decision making when it comes to increasing stats or buying equipment when you're actually at the top level (or very close)? Since I'm 45 in W4, with a very limited number of players at 46, I'm finding that my stats are reasonable for a non-tixxer and my equipment is... "okay," but that I'm very soon going to be marginally behind in one of those areas. Having a peaked beast instead of a blood thumb is definitely helping me pile up the defeats, but I'm wondering if the long term benefit of waiting to upgrade would be worth it.

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Thursday, August 14th 2008, 6:54pm

My personal philosophy is that you should ALWAYS keep yourself up to date in the latest weaponry because HP is the only stat you cant get VIA horse or personal stat. There are obviously some exceptions to this rule when purchasing weapons as some arnt really all that beneficial

As far as Helmets, Shields and Armor goes, I tend to upgrade every Pay increase or every 5 levels or so sometimes 10

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Thursday, August 14th 2008, 7:53pm

It really depends on whether you'd rather be somewhat competitive now, or very competitive later.

I think once you start getting to the higher levels, you have to start thinking somewhat shorter-term, as long-term starts to mean 3 months, and if you suck for 3 months, are you really going to stay motivated to keep playing?

Currently, I usually buy at least every 1 to 3 weapon upgrades (2-6 levels); one or sometimes two armors per series (12-15 levels), 1 shield per series (15 levels), and every helmet that's 2 more def and no penalties (2-9 levels).

I may start increasing the frequency as levels get slower. For example, considering how long it'll take to get from level 93 to 96, and how little a 4K difference will mean at 2500/hour, I'll probably get the level 93 helm even though I have the level 90.

And then, of course, at level 100, you're done upgrading forever, and have nothing to spend gold on but stats.
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Thursday, August 14th 2008, 9:30pm

Hmmm... I am almost level 45 in W4. From what I can see, you almost have to put the economics of weapon costs further down your priorities list about the time the Bloodthumb shows up. All characters go through a power cycle. They get stronger and weaker as they go up in levels (in comparison with other characters of similar levels) due to their gear; specifically their weapon. Because HP is such a pronounced stat in ALL battles, it makes sense that weapons are so important (and expensive).

As your gear gets out dated, your combat efficiency diminishes. The closer to the cutting edge you stay, they less pronounced your character's power cycle will be. Personally, I didn't mind holding on to gear longer in order to build my stats. I went from Foulchard to Snake spear to Gladius. A good 10-15 levels between weapon upgrades. This saved me some cash since I didn't keep taking loses on the resales.

At earlier levels you have a huge amount of weapon choices and skipping buys is a good strategy. But at later levels, the weapon choices thin out and the levels come slower and slower (like Falco mentioned earlier). To skip a weapon means waiting a week or two for the next one. In the mean time, your character is slowly losing power compared to other similar levels.

So, while I don't think it is a competitive now or competitive later choice per se; I do think it is a "How long am I willing to accept my character being weaker before I can be stronger again." I think Merc's should upgrade weapons whenever possible after level 36 to stay on the cutting edge of combat efficiency. But I am just a regular old 44th level order member... I work as close to 22 hours a day as I can and I am not worried about exp fights or fighting in more than one OB every day or two. I don't enjoy selling weapons and half the time I just give them back to the BS to make horseshoes with. I will probably upgrade my weapons every 4 to 6 levels.
*fades like a dream at dawn*

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Friday, August 15th 2008, 2:48am

So here's a question, then (and I'd love to see a full-blown discussion on the economics of Holy War altogether)...

How do you base your decision making when it comes to increasing stats or buying equipment when you're actually at the top level (or very close)? Since I'm 45 in W4, with a very limited number of players at 46, I'm finding that my stats are reasonable for a non-tixxer and my equipment is... "okay," but that I'm very soon going to be marginally behind in one of those areas. Having a peaked beast instead of a blood thumb is definitely helping me pile up the defeats, but I'm wondering if the long term benefit of waiting to upgrade would be worth it.
When you are on top, all is about Stats and HP. I change weapons as I leveled and the level has a weapon, and for armory I make a simple math - How much I need to spend on stats to cover the +stats that armor would give me - defense wise - and the difference from the price of what I wear and what I want to buy (taking in consideration also the price of negs). Maybe is not making sense this, but for me works great when I have to spend 13k for a defense. So, I buy armor with less possible negs (in range of -1, max -2) and who gives me at least 3 extra defenses comparing with what I have.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Derzis" (Aug 15th 2008, 3:32am)


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Friday, August 15th 2008, 5:39am

To skip a weapon means waiting a week or two for the next one. In the mean time, your character is slowly losing power compared to other similar levels.
When you get to the high 50s, it's over a week per level, so it won't be long before it's 3 weeks until the next one. However, I think it's still worth skipping some of them. For example, the Talus Sword (L54, +52/+1) is not that much better than the Snake Tongue (L52, +52/-1); the money you would have spent on the upgrade will almost buy the 2 AGI points permanently (and you're going to want them if you get the L56 +57/-3 Hardened Flail).

There is another side to this that I didn't think about until Mangle pointed it out to me back in the mid-40s-on-W2 days: There are long stretches where the prices go up very slowly. For example, 40K-42K-44K-46K-48K-50K, and later 60K-63K-66K. If you have someone to buy your hand-me-downs, you can afford to buy each upgrade without selling any pots with just part of your wages; once you skip one, you have to plunder and still sell pots (or gamble) to get the next one. The savings in avoiding the pot market problem don't make up for the cost of all of those upgrades--but the savings in time and effort might make up the difference.
I don't enjoy selling weapons and half the time I just give them back to the BS to make horseshoes with.
If you're trying to avoid all the headaches of depending on buyers, I can understand that, but I think there's a much better solution than selling to the BS: Just buy the next weapon without selling the old one. Then, you can sell the old one at your leisure and use the gold for stats. It's much less of a hassle dealing with buyers when you have nothing to lose if they can't come up with the gold.

Yes, you waste a bit of gold this way (you're essentially saving the gold twice--or, put a different way, you're cost-of-the-previous-weapon behind everyone in stats), but losing an extra 35% of every single deal is much worse than this. Think about it this way: At level 60, I'll be 66K behind; you'll be 94K behind (35% of 44K+48K+50K+60K+66K) behind. At level 70, I'll be 84K behind; you'll be 147K behind (35% of 44K+48K+50K+60K+66K+73K+80K). And it just keeps getting worse.
When you are on top, all is about Stats and HP.
I think that's true at all levels. And it's actually less true when you're at the top.

After being away for a month (with TBK sitting my account, so my level is fine, but my gear is a month old), I came back to a battle. While walking the enemy AC list, I discovered that I easily beat the vast majority of people 5 levels below me, even if they have better stats and the same gear as me.
I change weapons as I leveled and the level has a weapon
Except for this past month, I usually buy most of them--but not all. Again, do you really need the Talus sword? (Actually, I bought one at level 50 in W1, and I had to get it in W2 because I skipped the Snaketongue, but ignore that.)
and for armory I make a simple math
I do something a little more complicated (take into account how much I'm losing now, and how much I'll have lost by the time of the next upgrade, discount the future, and decide whether it's a better deal than stats--and don't forget horse stats as another option). But it's basically the same.

Either way, the results come out to what I showed above.
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Friday, August 15th 2008, 6:08am

1. Is not less true in my opinion. Why? Because the random factor acts crazy at high levels and HP and strength can take (in part) away from this so called "random luck".
2. You won because of XP. 5 levels difference is like 1800-2000 xp for your level. You cant "blame" your armory for your wins. Is xp factor who counts a lot.
3. I bought Talus not because was better (HP wise), but because was easier to sell after to a buyer who can be 5-6 levels away from the weapon. And the difference in price was very cheap comparing to 2 agility.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Derzis" (Aug 15th 2008, 6:33am)


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Friday, August 15th 2008, 7:55am

1. Is not less true in my opinion. Why? Because the random factor acts crazy at high levels and HP and strength can take (in part) away from this so called "random luck".
2. You won because of XP. 5 levels difference is like 1800-2000 xp for your level. You cant "blame" your armory for your wins. Is xp factor who counts a lot.
3. I bought Talus not because was better (HP wise), but because was easier to sell after to a buyer who can be 5-6 levels away from the weapon. And the difference in price was very cheap comparing to 2 agility.
1. Actually, I think with two people with high STR, and ATT, the battles are even more random than with two people with high AGI and STA. However, it's hard to be sure, because almost everyone my level has high STR and ATT except me. In Tagoria, which I assume has a similar (but not identical) combat system, there are people with stats balanced like mine, and there are also monster NPCs to fight, and it's definitely true there. But that's getting off the topic.

The point is that when I fight someone my level, things seem to be more random at level 62 than they were at level 42. And when I fight people 5 levels below me, the levels, as opposed to stats or gear, seem to matter much more than they did at 42. So, either way, it's really _less_ about stats and HP now than it was 20 levels ago.

2. Good point; I think you're right. The extra LP makes a small difference as well (if we go 150-150 in the first round, they're more wounded than me in the second round), but xp has to be the main factor. And that explains why level matters so much more now than it did 20 levels ago--while 5 levels may 1/12th of my total instead of 1/8th, the xp difference is much greater than it was back then.

3. Another good point. The Talus is a very popular weapon, especially for players buying hand-me-down gear ahead of their level, because of the lack of penalties. The same goes for the sickle axe vs. the warpike, and other similar choices.

As for the difference in price: Buying either one or the other makes sense, but the cost of buying both instead of one is effectively something like 25% of the cost of one of the weapons. (You lose 20% selling the old weapon, and you also lose 20% of whatever it costs to make up the difference selling elixirs.) Now, 15000gp may not buy 2 AGI at level 54--but that's 2 AGI that you get to keep forever, as opposed to 2 AGI that you get to keep for 2-4 levels. I think it's worth skipping one of those two (except maybe for the Mangle factor I mentioned before).
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Friday, August 15th 2008, 11:29pm

As for the difference in price: Buying either one or the other makes sense, but the cost of buying both instead of one is effectively something like 25% of the cost of one of the weapons. (You lose 20% selling the old weapon, and you also lose 20% of whatever it costs to make up the difference selling elixirs.) Now, 15000gp may not buy 2 AGI at level 54--but that's 2 AGI that you get to keep forever, as opposed to 2 AGI that you get to keep for 2-4 levels. I think it's worth skipping one of those two (except maybe for the Mangle factor I mentioned before).
Depends always from what point of view you are looking at the problem. I am not saying is not easy to skip one or two weapons, I am saying that when you decided to buy a weapon with negs, do yourself a favor and change it as soon as possible for one without -> buy weapons once you level *

* This "way" works for +50 ( I may restrain it for +55 thought). When I was low/middle level, I always bought the level 20 spear because had the same hp with level 22 swords and kept it until level 26 spear. The way you manage your gold makes the difference after all.

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Sunday, August 17th 2008, 11:14pm

Resale Value

As you work your way up the levels and things start to cost a whole lot more, you need to take resale value into your decision-making process - a sword with +agility and good HP's will always be something you can resell for decent money - not always the case with something like a hardened fouchard, or a flail of any type (I made this mistake once and ended up selling it back to the BS for half price).

Try to stay with the armors that have no negatives - easier to resell, same with shields - a good one comes along every 7 - 10 levels with no negatives (why would you spend 13000 on a Damask shield that has a -2 Agility - at level 62)

Equipment is an investment - use your head and think long-term on your purchases.

Horses are another subject - I'd say buy either a level 47 or 50, then not another until level 70

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Monday, August 18th 2008, 9:44pm

Wondering about the Assasin Blade

I have been intrigued with the Assasins Blade...+7 in Agility is just about worth the purchase? I am curious what others think of this somewhat odd weapon. I may carry two weapons for a while, The blade for defense while working and another weapon for hitpoints when attacking? Thoughts?

SpudBud, You are a little cheap on the resale value. Yes it probably matters, but your view disregards sales to Order members or strong allies. There may be ways to compensate the sale in the play of the game.

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Monday, August 18th 2008, 9:54pm

RE: Wondering about the Assasin Blade

I have been intrigued with the Assasins Blade...+7 in Agility is just about worth the purchase? I am curious what others think of this somewhat odd weapon. I may carry two weapons for a while, The blade for defense while working and another weapon for hitpoints when attacking? Thoughts?

SpudBud, You are a little cheap on the resale value. Yes it probably matters, but your view disregards sales to Order members or strong allies. There may be ways to compensate the sale in the play of the game.
I thought about that too at one point. +7 agility is something to think about. But, checking reports after fighting with less agility than others (not now, but when was the moment for that buy) I saw nothing to make me buy agility instead HP. I guess is all about your way to develop your stats. I wouldn't keep two weapons just to see what's giving what, because I think stats are more important. Second weapon = gold stuck and not used in your behalf

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Wednesday, September 3rd 2008, 12:36am

RE: RE: Wondering about the Assassin Blade


I have been intrigued with the Assasins Blade...+7 in Agility is just about worth the purchase? I am curious what others think of this somewhat odd weapon. I may carry two weapons for a while, The blade for defense while working and another weapon for hitpoints when attacking? Thoughts?

SpudBud, You are a little cheap on the resale value. Yes it probably matters, but your view disregards sales to Order members or strong allies. There may be ways to compensate the sale in the play of the game.
I thought about that too at one point. +7 agility is something to think about. But, checking reports after fighting with less agility than others (not now, but when was the moment for that buy) I saw nothing to make me buy agility instead HP. I guess is all about your way to develop your stats. I wouldn't keep two weapons just to see what's giving what, because I think stats are more important. Second weapon = gold stuck and not used in your behalf

You'd think I would have paid attention when Ved and I attacked each other, though it typically seemed to come down to whoever was better off, LP-wise, would win. Lots of attacks that did less damage, though; I do remember that.

Just from my own point of view, from what I recall, the damage was not impressive at all and I figured I'd bypass it and go for the Scottish Sword.

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Tuesday, November 18th 2008, 4:31am

Anyone have any thoughts on what to buy beyond level 50 or so?
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
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Tuesday, November 18th 2008, 5:26am

Anyone have any thoughts on what to buy beyond level 50 or so?
Depends on how easy is to sell ...
You can go for Snake tongue - level 52 (52hp and -1ag)
Change for Shimmer Blade - level 58 (57hp) - you can skip Talus sword from 54 or skip spear and take Talus if is hard to sell the spear
Lance wings at 62 (62hp -1 ag) - here if is hard to sell (meaning being obliged to sell it back to blacksmith) you can keep the Shimmer Blade and go directly to
Flame Sword at 64 (63hp) and next buy I made was
Rock splitters at 68 (70hp -2ag) before I left W1

For rest, check here
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=…&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
My advise, adapt your style of purchasing depending on how is going the selling in the world and stat cost/price difference between what you buy and what you change.
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Tuesday, November 18th 2008, 6:21am

Anyone have any thoughts on what to buy beyond level 50 or so?
Sure. This is all assuming you're up in the top ranks, but not trying to be the absolute best merc in your world. If you're pretty far back, don't do as many upgrades--you can probably kill everyone below you, and nobody above you, so save your gold for stats. And if you're trying to out-do Mangle or JtG or Rie or Atropos, you need more frequent weapon upgrades (and you probably also need psychological treatment for your delusions).

Weapons: Stick with the track you're on at first. Then, at 68, you have no choice--3 HP is better than 2 Agi, period. And the 70 sucks. And 78 is the same choice again, and the 80 sucks. And you need the 100. So, if you don't want to upgrade every 3 levels (you might, because 3 levels will take a long time in the 90s), you only have two real choices:
  • If if you went with the berserker axe and warpike: 52, 56, 62, 68 (axe), 72 or 74, 78 (axe), 83, 89, 95, 100.
  • If you went with the gladius or beast and the thumb: 50, 54, 68, 64, 68 (axe), 72 or 74, 78 (axe), 83, 89, 95, 100.
Armor: The 12-level pattern is now 15 levels, and levels take longer, so at some point I think you want to switch to two armors per cycle instead of 1. You'll be getting a lot of extra Def for not that much gold, and the penalties are only -1/-0 and -0/-1.
  • 55, 67, 73, 82, 88, 100.
Shields: Like armor, ridiculously cheap. Every 6-9 levels, for less than the cost of one stat (even if you have to buy at retail and sell to the BS0, you get +4-5 Def.
  • 54, 60, 69, 75, 84, 90, 100.
Helmets: Odd patterns, but the premium helmets are almost always a significantly better deal than the ones around them, they never have negatives, and they mostly come at a good distance from each other (7-9 levels), so I'd say stick with the basic pre-50 pattern--buy every premium helm, and no non-premium helms. The one exception is that you probably don't want the 97 right after the 96, so skip one of those.
  • 55, 62, 70, 78, 87, 96, 100.
Horses: Assuming you were smart and ended up with a Shire or English t-bred, it's easy: Perche, Ardennes, Black Forest. But if you listened to some bonehead on the forums who sold you on the A-Tek, now what?
  • 50-60-80-100. Ouch, that's a waste of gold. Although maybe it's better to waste it earlier than later, and waste less of it, I wouldn't do this.
  • 50-70-80-100. At least 70 and 80 are farther apart than 50 and 60, so it's not quite as much of a waste. But still.
  • 50-70-100. You're going to be the weakest 95 in the game; can you handle that to save more gold to be stronger after 100?
  • 50-80-100. This way, you're weak in the high 70s instead of the high 90s. That might be easier. Then again, in the high 70s, there will be 25 other people to compete with; in the high 90s, there will probably be nobody left but Dasha, and you can't compete with her anyway.
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