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Wednesday, February 10th 2010, 5:58am

OK, I will probobly try to find a Shimmering Blade for cheap, and if I can't find one by lvl 60, I'll just grab a Flambard. That'll take me to the lvl 68 Stonesplitter.
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Wednesday, February 10th 2010, 7:07pm

Scythes are generally not very good weapons anyway. Even with the advent of real war scythes, it was still a weapon used only by large, hastily-recruited peasant armies. It was a halberd substitute for people who are worth so little in battle that it wasn't worth issuing them even a halbert (which was already a cheap weapon).

But in game terms, what it comes down to is whether you think you'll be able to keep winning xp fights with your current weapon. If so, wait until 92; if not, get the scythe.

My, your just full of interesting facts. This was something I did not know about the weapons' historical significance in terms of their use in battle.

Hard to say at the moment, probably the best option though would be to find someone selling a Martyr Sabre early, but I don't know of anyone that has one at the moment.
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Thursday, August 19th 2010, 9:46pm

Frequent Upgrades?
If I remember correctly, Mangle bought the snake spear, and then every weapon from the gladius to the Scottish sword, while Bogong kept his dragon sword until level 44. So, these are both viable strategies. What are the tradeoffs?

The common wisdom is that if you upgrade more often, you're trading long-term power (gold saved for stats) for short-term power (a level-42 with a berserker axe is a lot more powerful than a level-42 with a gladius). But there's more to it than that.
Now, I know some of you will be upset with me for resurrecting a thread that's been dead for 190 days (that's what it said when I tried to reply to it), but I may have some worthwhile information to add here.

Now, normally I would go somewhere in between the above strategies, basically buying every other upgrade on the most effective gear lists; however, when it came to W4 I wanted to try something different and more drastic, and something which I did not believe had been done before. In this world I chose to do something different and at level 30, with the helmet coming at 31, when I bought my upgrades for my weapon, armor, shield, and helmet and I thought I would pick certain upgrades that were a fair distance from the level 30 upgrades, which were the level 44 Chain Mail Armour 4 (armor, clearly), level 45 Fighting Shield (steel) (shield), level 41 Mask Helmet (helmet), and level 46 Warpike (weapon). Normally I would have upgraded the weapon at level 38 or 40, shield at 39, armor at 36, 40, or 42, and helmet at level 37.

Well, I actually ended up buying the level 42 Barbuta on the helmet because of an unexpected complication (not having premium to be able to buy the level 41 Mask Helmet). So, that was a minor complication, but it didn't really skew my results much.

Even with a horse upgrade at level 33 my results have ended up being quite impressive. (I had been stockpiling elixirs for quite some time, so I was able to buy the horse, stat it up, and still have plenty left over.)

I plan to upgrade to a Warpike tonight, which will bring the experiment to its second stage in the upgrades.

What were the results of this experiment thus far?


Mainly a stat average that is much higher than I would normally have been able to achieve and higher overall stats.

Now, normally I would be hitting a stat average of 1.55-1.6x level at level 45, but much to my surprise I am at an incredible (even by my standards) stat average of nearly 1.7x (around 1.69 at the moment). Most people at this level average stats in the mid sixties to low seventies (65 at the lowest to 75 max lets say), meanwhile I'm hitting the low seventies to mid eighties (71 at the lowest to 85 at the highest approximately).

Tradeoffs?

Well, awesome stats for your level mean nothing if your weapon is underpowered and of a low level when your opponent has just average stats as well as a level and hitpoints-appropriate weapon.

So, even if you have great stats you will be sufficiently tenderized if you run into someone who is just an average player of your level with a level-appropriate weapon while your own weapon is sub-par.

Other Outcomes?


Well, playing as a non-premium and having great stats for the level you're often going to end your days having done all your plunders and even with a full eight-hours worth of wages you won't have quite enough for your most expensive stat and will oftentimes end up just going to the shop and buying more holies (or whatever your choice elixir is) and just adding to the stockpile that is constantly building in your inventory.

In my own experience, I have now ended up with a total just over 267,000 gold in excess elixirs (if sold at minimum price) ranging from consecrated to holy beverage, which I do not need to be carrying around and could easily just be sold off to buy upgrades and/or buy stats. I'd say that's a fairly respectably amount considering this is at only level 46.
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Friday, August 20th 2010, 12:47am

What level are you?
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Friday, August 20th 2010, 5:54am

What level are you?
Well, in the world I'm talking about (W4) I'm a level 46.

I'm also a 102 in W1, a 91 in W6, and a 69 in W8
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Friday, August 20th 2010, 7:44pm

Considering I'm operating on 4 hours of sleep due to a tech support issue this morning, I probably ought to wait until I've slept a bit before answering, but a number of things jumped right out at me that lead me to think you're reaching a completely invalid conclusion.

Now, normally I would go somewhere in between the above strategies, basically buying every other upgrade on the most effective gear lists; however, when it came to W4 I wanted to try something different and more drastic, and something which I did not believe had been done before. In this world I chose to do something different and at level 30, with the helmet coming at 31, when I bought my upgrades for my weapon, armor, shield, and helmet I thought I would pick certain upgrades that were a fair distance from the level 30 upgrades, which were the level 44 Chain Mail Armour 4 (armor, clearly), level 45 Fighting Shield (steel) (shield), level 41 Mask Helmet (helmet), and level 46 Warpike (weapon). Normally I would have upgraded the weapon at level 38 or 40, shield at 39, armor at 36, 40, or 42, and helmet at level 37.

Well, I actually ended up buying the level 42 Barbuta on the helmet because of an unexpected complication (not having premium to be able to buy the level 41 Mask Helmet). So, that was a minor complication, but it didn't really skew my results much.


The most obvious point; if you're using equipment that is higher level than you are, you're going to take a stat penalty. Having never done this before (I've always been at or near the top when I was competing), I don't know if it actually shows up in your stats screen, but if I'm reading this correctly and you're saying you bought equipment that was level 41-46 when you were level 30, that's a cumulative 11-16 point penalty to each of the stats affected. In other words, your armor would have given you a -14 to stamina and a -14 to agility, the helmet would have been a -12 to stamina (I think), shield would be -15 to stamina, etc. So... overall, maybe something like a -40 to stamina and a -56 to agility? It's been several months since I've played, so I don't recall what equipment affected which stats, but someone else should be able to correct me on that. At this point (since you're level 46), none of those penalties should affect you, but buying your equipment 11-16 levels early is going to screw you over, hard. If you don't care about winning or losing, great. Otherwise, you want to think twice about doing this. Honestly, I'd rather just not upgrade any equipment at all for those 11-16 levels and deal with my equipment being out of date, as opposed to monumental stat penalties like that.

Also, whether you were premium or not wouldn't matter. If you're not premium, you can't buy premium equipment at the shop (direct from the merchant), but there are no such restrictions in buying premium equipment from other players.

Mainly a stat average that is much higher than I would normally have been able to achieve and higher overall stats.

Now, normally I would be hitting a stat average of 1.55-1.6x level at level 45, but much to my surprise I am at an incredible (even by my standards) stat average of nearly 1.7x (around 1.69 at the moment). Most people at this level average stats in the mid sixties to low seventies (65 at the lowest to 75 max lets say), meanwhile I'm hitting the low seventies to mid eighties (71 at the lowest to 85 at the highest approximately).


I'd be a bit curious about your stat average and how good it really is. I don't recall (and don't have the documentation any more) what my stats were at the level, nor what a lot of the other active players were at, but 1.7 sounds about average, if not a touch low. By level 80-90, if I remember right, I was right at 1.9-2.1 or thereabouts, and the top 20-30 players were all right there with me. Maybe some of them were at 1.8, but I recall that was a bit low. I'd also be curious if you're talking about stat average with the horse or without? Mine was something like 1.9 with, 2.1 without, and while a lot of the others were reversed (higher horse stats), it was still right around there. With horse stats costing so much less than personal stats, I'd be even less impressed if that 1.7 included your horse (not that I'm impressed to begin with, but you get the idea). With us being premium (and therefore not having as much time at each level to increase stats), I would think you should be significantly higher.

I'd also question just how active the other players are at that level? I don't know what the highest level in w4 is, but I seem to recall it's over 100. Anyone in the mid-40s is going to be an extremely casual player, at best. Saying you compare favorably to them is like saying you can out bench press everyone at the local grade school. In short, it's not much of an accomplishment to compare favorably to the other mid-40's. It certainly doesn't sound (at least to me) like it's anywhere near "incredible."

Well, playing as a non-premium and having great stats for the level you're often going to end your days having done all your plunders and even with a full eight-hours worth of wages you won't have quite enough for your most expensive stat and will oftentimes end up just going to the shop and buying more holies (or whatever your choice elixir is) and just adding to the stockpile that is constantly building in your inventory.


Go to the tavern. This is how you work around the issue of being just a touch short with your plunders and not having enough to buy a stat. If your stat costs 8,100gp to increase, and you only have 8,000gp, go bet 100gp at the tavern. If you lose, bet 100gp with Thimberlig. If you lose that, bet the 4-man House of Luck. Or use whatever your preferred strategy is. In any case, bet until you win enough to improve a stat or lose enough that you can only improve a horse stat. NEVER buy a potion unless you plan on drinking it or using it to buy equipment. If at all possible (assuming you have the nerve to do it), don't even buy potions to upgrade equipment. Save your level-up bonuses (up to 30 days, if I remember right), have someone on hand to buy your used equipment, and sell your equipment only when you've gambled enough to make the difference. If you plan it out well, that should only require 3-4 wins in a row. If you absolutely have to, sell potions to make up the difference. The one-person "bank order" is EXTREMELY helpful, by the way; just make sure not to stock so much that someone attacks you in order to plunder that. If you can bank 460gp today and 460gp tomorrow, then when you're 900gp short of that stat, you've got it available.

Whenever people say they have hundreds of thousands of gp in elixir stocks, I know they've wasted hundreds of thousands of gp that could have improved their stats immensely.

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Saturday, August 21st 2010, 4:12am

Considering I'm operating on 4 hours of sleep due to a tech support issue this morning, I probably ought to wait until I've slept a bit before answering, but a number of things jumped right out at me that lead me to think you're reaching a completely invalid conclusion.
Now, normally I would go somewhere in between the above strategies, basically buying every other upgrade on the most effective gear lists; however, when it came to W4 I wanted to try something different and more drastic, and something which I did not believe had been done before. In this world I chose to do something different and at level 30, with the helmet coming at 31, when I bought my upgrades for my weapon, armor, shield, and helmet I thought I would pick certain upgrades that were a fair distance from the level 30 upgrades, which were the level 44 Chain Mail Armour 4 (armor, clearly), level 45 Fighting Shield (steel) (shield), level 41 Mask Helmet (helmet), and level 46 Warpike (weapon). Normally I would have upgraded the weapon at level 38 or 40, shield at 39, armor at 36, 40, or 42, and helmet at level 37.

Well, I actually ended up buying the level 42 Barbuta on the helmet because of an unexpected complication (not having premium to be able to buy the level 41 Mask Helmet). So, that was a minor complication, but it didn't really skew my results much.
The most obvious point; if you're using equipment that is higher level than you are, you're going to take a stat penalty.

Also, whether you were premium or not wouldn't matter.
If you're not premium, you can't buy premium equipment at the shop (direct from the merchant), but there are no such restrictions in buying premium equipment from other players.
Mainly a stat average that is much higher than I would normally have been able to achieve and higher overall stats.

Now, normally I would be hitting a stat average of 1.55-1.6x level at level 45, but much to my surprise I am at an incredible (even by my standards) stat average of nearly 1.7x (around 1.69 at the moment). Most people at this level average stats in the mid sixties to low seventies (65 at the lowest to 75 max lets say), meanwhile I'm hitting the low seventies to mid eighties (71 at the lowest to 85 at the highest approximately).
I'd be a bit curious about your stat average and how good it really is. I don't recall (and don't have the documentation any more) what my stats were at the level, nor what a lot of the other active players were at, but 1.7 sounds about average, if not a touch low. By level 80-90, if I remember right, I was right at 1.9-2.1 or thereabouts, and the top 20-30 players were all right there with me. Maybe some of them were at 1.8, but I recall that was a bit low. I'd also be curious if you're talking about stat average with the horse or without? With us being premium (and therefore not having as much time at each level to increase stats), I would think you should be significantly higher.

I'd also question just how active the other players are at that level?
I don't know what the highest level in w4 is, but I seem to recall it's over 100. Anyone in the mid-40s is going to be an extremely casual player, at best. Saying you compare favorably to them is like saying you can out bench press everyone at the local grade school. In short, it's not much of an accomplishment to compare favorably to the other mid-40's. It certainly doesn't sound (at least to me) like it's anywhere near "incredible."
Well, playing as a non-premium and having great stats for the level you're often going to end your days having done all your plunders and even with a full eight-hours worth of wages you won't have quite enough for your most expensive stat and will oftentimes end up just going to the shop and buying more holies (or whatever your choice elixir is) and just adding to the stockpile that is constantly building in your inventory.
Go to the tavern. This is how you work around the issue of being just a touch short with your plunders and not having enough to buy a stat.

Whenever people say they have hundreds of thousands of gp in elixir stocks, I know they've wasted hundreds of thousands of gp that could have improved their stats immensely.
Yes, you should have. (See second point)

Err, no. I'm afraid you are mistaken sir, I was actually saying that I was going to carry the level 30 gear until those levels.

Actually it would, non-premium players typically have higher stats at the same levels as premium players.

No, I don't ever include horse stats in my stat calculations. I'd never been premium there until just the other day though, played the first 40+ levels as non-premium, save for the first week of free premium.

1.7 might be average for someone like yourself who would get up late at night to time a work shift perfectly from one transitioning into the next, but I'm not that obsessed with it. For someone like myself, who has always averaged 1.55-1.6 through that level range in all previous worlds in which I played at best while at times having several hours between the end of one work shift and the start of another, 1.7x is outstanding.

Heck if I know, I have very little connection with the world outside of my own character when I'm non-premium.

Well, for you perhaps not, but for me it is a personal victory, and that's worth a lot to me regardless of what you may say on the subject. Remember, I'm comparing myself to the "average" player at my own level, not to the level 100+'s and not to what your character was at the same level.

No, that's how I lose half of my work pay and proceed to sit cursing loudly at my computer as I try to get the gold back, and then proceed to lose the rest of it and then end the night barking mad.
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Saturday, August 21st 2010, 4:18am

Whenever people say they have hundreds of thousands of gp in elixir stocks, I know they've wasted hundreds of thousands of gp that could have improved their stats immensely.
Perhaps, but I just use the leftover elixirs to sell off and get stats on the weekends. With the exception of the worlds I play non-premium in, in which I wait until I get premium and then have a massive sell-off to stat up.
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Saturday, August 21st 2010, 3:54pm

Err, no. I'm afraid you are mistaken sir, I was actually saying that I was going to carry the level 30 gear until those levels.


You specifically said that you were purchasing equipment that was level 41-46, while you were level 30. Did you misspeak, or did I miss something?

Actually it would, non-premium players typically have higher stats at the same levels as premium players.


I don't know that I've ever compared, but it would make sense to me that they should. From what you're mentioning in this thread, though, you don't seem to. In fact, your stats seem to be right at, or even lower, than most premium players.

1.7 might be average for someone like yourself who would get up late at night to time a work shift perfectly from one transitioning into the next, but I'm not that obsessed with it. For someone like myself, who has always averaged 1.55-1.6 through that level range in all previous worlds in which I played at best while at times having several hours between the end of one work shift and the start of another, 1.7x is outstanding.


1.7 was not average for someone like myself. 1.9-2.1 was average for someone like myself. 1.7 was average for someone who just "showed up and played." From what I remember, most of the premium players managed to keep a stat average at that level or higher simply by making sure they weren't missing plunders or work shifts. Anything lower than that seems like it would be pretty low. That being said, that's purely based on my memory (which has always been faulty), and stat averages for various levels are always different. What constitutes a good stat average at 46 is likely a lot different than 86 or 106.

Well, for you perhaps not, but for me it is a personal victory, and that's worth a lot to me regardless of what you may say on the subject. Remember, I'm comparing myself to the "average" player at my own level, not to the level 100+'s and not to what your character was at the same level.


That's fine, but you present your accomplishments as "incredible," and I think that's misleading to any new players who read this thread. When the leaders of world 4 are at level 100+ (I'm not sure what this is, actually), a level 46 player is a non-factor. It stands to reason that the majority of people who are actively playing and who care about being competitive are at least somewhere close to the top and/or have traded their accounts for one that is somewhat closer to the top than 50-60 levels behind. Ergo, it also stands to reason that the majority of people who are in the mid-40s really don't care that much about the game or don't even play any more. When you compare yourself to them and call your accomplishments "incredible," that's just a bit disingenuous.

Still, if it works for you, then I apologize for raining on your parade and encourage you, by all means, to celebrate it. Just understand this isn't really an accomplishment that has a lot of meaning outside of your personal experience.

No, that's how I lose half of my work pay and proceed to sit cursing loudly at my computer as I try to get the gold back, and then proceed to lose the rest of it and then end the night barking mad.


Granted, there are many times that the tavern will take all your pay and leave you nothing to show for it, but those are balanced out (in the long run) by the times when the tavern rewards you with a boatload of money and the ability to purchase 4-5 stats at once. Personally, I usually stopped as soon as I made enough to buy one stat (or maybe two), but converting your gold to elixirs is a guaranteed loss every single time. The key is that you have to increase your sample size when you look at this (and from what I recall, this is the same argument you and I have had for a couple years now). Don't go to the tavern twice, lose, and then believe that the tavern is always going to steal your money. Go to the tavern 100 times. Lose 48 times, win 52 times (or whatever), and get a better feel for it. The way the odds are set up in the tavern, the house wins 50% of the time. In other words, the odds are completely fair and the probabilities, while not in your favor, are not against you either. If you buy 50,000gp in elixirs, then sell them back at 45,000gp, and lose another 10% in stall fees, you're netting 40,500gp. That's a guaranteed loss of 9,500gp every single time, or 19% of your total stake. Take that 50,000gp to the tavern and chances are pretty darn good that you'll end up getting right around 50,000gp back out. Sure, it'll be 0gp one time, 2,000gp another time, 10,000gp another time, and so on, but on average you get back every penny you put into it.

Also, like I said earlier... form a one-man bank order. That was always my best (and most dependable) way of always ensuring I had just enough gold to buy a stat (when combined with work pay) or to soak any overages when I had extra gold left over after buying a stat.

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Saturday, August 21st 2010, 6:26pm

Err, no. I'm afraid you are mistaken sir, I was actually saying that I was going to carry the level 30 gear until those levels.
You specifically said that you were purchasing equipment that was level 41-46, while you were level 30. Did you misspeak, or did I miss something?
1.7 might be average for someone like yourself who would get up late at night to time a work shift perfectly from one transitioning into the next, but I'm not that obsessed with it. For someone like myself, who has always averaged 1.55-1.6 through that level range in all previous worlds in which I played at best while at times having several hours between the end of one work shift and the start of another, 1.7x is outstanding.
1.7 was not average for someone like myself. 1.9-2.1 was average for someone like myself. 1.7 was average for someone who just "showed up and played." From what I remember, most of the premium players managed to keep a stat average at that level or higher simply by making sure they weren't missing plunders or work shifts. Anything lower than that seems like it would be pretty low. That being said, that's purely based on my memory (which has always been faulty), and stat averages for various levels are always different. What constitutes a good stat average at 46 is likely a lot different than 86 or 106.
Well, for you perhaps not, but for me it is a personal victory, and that's worth a lot to me regardless of what you may say on the subject. Remember, I'm comparing myself to the "average" player at my own level, not to the level 100+'s and not to what your character was at the same level.
That's fine, but you present your accomplishments as "incredible," and I think that's misleading to any new players who read this thread. When the leaders of world 4 are at level 100+ (I'm not sure what this is, actually), a level 46 player is a non-factor. It stands to reason that the majority of people who are actively playing and who care about being competitive are at least somewhere close to the top and/or have traded their accounts for one that is somewhat closer to the top than 50-60 levels behind. Ergo, it also stands to reason that the majority of people who are in the mid-40s really don't care that much about the game or don't even play any more. When you compare yourself to them and call your accomplishments "incredible," that's just a bit disingenuous.

Still, if it works for you, then I apologize for raining on your parade and encourage you, by all means, to celebrate it. Just understand this isn't really an accomplishment that has a lot of meaning outside of your personal experience.
No, that's how I lose half of my work pay and proceed to sit cursing loudly at my computer as I try to get the gold back, and then proceed to lose the rest of it and then end the night barking mad.
Granted, there are many times that the tavern will take all your pay and leave you nothing to show for it, but those are balanced out (in the long run) by the times when the tavern rewards you with a boatload of money and the ability to purchase 4-5 stats at once. Personally, I usually stopped as soon as I made enough to buy one stat (or maybe two), but converting your gold to elixirs is a guaranteed loss every single time. The key is that you have to increase your sample size when you look at this (and from what I recall, this is the same argument you and I have had for a couple years now). Don't go to the tavern twice, lose, and then believe that the tavern is always going to steal your money. Go to the tavern 100 times. Lose 48 times, win 52 times (or whatever), and get a better feel for it. The way the odds are set up in the tavern, the house wins 50% of the time. In other words, the odds are completely fair and the probabilities, while not in your favor, are not against you either. If you buy 50,000gp in elixirs, then sell them back at 45,000gp, and lose another 10% in stall fees, you're netting 40,500gp. That's a guaranteed loss of 9,500gp every single time, or 19% of your total stake. Take that 50,000gp to the tavern and chances are pretty darn good that you'll end up getting right around 50,000gp back out. Sure, it'll be 0gp one time, 2,000gp another time, 10,000gp another time, and so on, but on average you get back every penny you put into it.

Also, like I said earlier... form a one-man bank order. That was always my best (and most dependable) way of always ensuring I had just enough gold to buy a stat (when combined with work pay) or to soak any overages when I had extra gold left over after buying a stat.
No, that's not what I said, I said I had bought the level 30 upgrades, and that when I was going to stretch them until my next upgrades I chose to keep the level 30 upgrades until levels 41-46. You misunderstood.

Well, then you are either the exception to the rule with really incredibly high stats or your memory is giving you faulty values as you had hypothesized as being a possibility. Also, I have never ever seen any player at that level with stat averages as high as the one's you quote.

And they are, to me, I don't know about W4, but in W1 most of the players around that level have usually averaged 1.55-1.6x stats (without camping or tixxing).

A level 100+ is any account/player who is of level one-hundred or above. It's simply a shortened way of saying that.

In the large scheme of things perhaps not, but I've never really cared if my account/level was a factor when I'm 40 or more levels back from the top, because I'm sensible enough to know that it isn't and probably won't be for quite a long time, if ever.

Ergo I'm striving to be better than a player that just goes through the daily routine and to best my own past accomplishments, and if I meet the latter of those two goals I will undoubtedly exceed the first one by a considerable amount.

Oh, and by the way, TBK, you deleted the wrong post. In the second one I had reposted to correct typographical errors and added some additional information. Since there is no "EDIT" button now I was forced to repost it a second time to edit it that way. So, now the corrections are lost, as is the additional info (and I can't remember what the info I added was now so it truly is lost). The first one was the one that needed to be deleted.

I make up for that lost gold on the day that I resell the elixirs with my work pay and/or plunders though, so the loss isn't even remotely noticeable to me so long as I can make up for it with work pay and plunders on the day that I need to sell to buy stats/upgrades/whatever I need it for.
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Saturday, August 21st 2010, 8:30pm

No, that's not what I said, I said I had bought the level 30 upgrades, and that when I was going to stretch them until my next upgrades I chose to keep the level 30 upgrades until levels 41-46. You misunderstood.


I still don't think so. I'm re-reading your statement for the third time, and it seems pretty clear to me, but no worries; I was mistaken in thinking you were buying this equipment early. If that's the case, I would point out this isn't a new suggestion. This is exactly what I did from about level 40 to about level 80, and I did post extensive about my experience.

Well, then you are either the exception to the rule with really incredibly high stats or your memory is giving you faulty values as you had hypothesized as being a possibility. Also, I have never ever seen any player at that level with stat averages as high as the one's you quote.

And they are, to me, I don't know about W4, but in W1 most of the players around that level have usually averaged 1.55-1.6x stats (without camping or tixxing).


Perhaps, but I don't think so. Still, maybe you ought to look at the stats of the active players at level 100+ and see what their averages are?

A level 100+ is any account/player who is of level one-hundred or above. It's simply a shortened way of saying that.


You think? I knew exactly what I was talking about. What I meant was that I don't know what the current highest level player is.

In the large scheme of things perhaps not, but I've never really cared if my account/level was a factor when I'm 40 or more levels back from the top, because I'm sensible enough to know that it isn't and probably won't be for quite a long time, if ever.

Ergo I'm striving to be better than a player that just goes through the daily routine and to best my own past accomplishments, and if I meet the latter of those two goals I will undoubtedly exceed the first one by a considerable amount.


Ah, no worries then; sounds like you are doing exactly what you set out for. When I read your post, though, it sounded like you were trying to give advice to new players and I felt your claims were misleading in that context.

Oh, and by the way, TBK, you deleted the wrong post. In the second one I had reposted to correct typographical errors and added some additional information. Since there is no "EDIT" button now I was forced to repost it a second time to edit it that way. So, now the corrections are lost, as is the additional info (and I can't remember what the info I added was now so it truly is lost). The first one was the one that needed to be deleted.


Sorry - my apologies; I'll re-enable the second post and delete the first.

I make up for that lost gold on the day that I resell the elixirs with my work pay and/or plunders though, so the loss isn't even remotely noticeable to me so long as I can make up for it with work pay and plunders on the day that I need to sell to buy stats/upgrades/whatever I need it for.


But you don't make up that gold; that's my point. Let's say you and I are both level 40 and we play for 30 days, somehow staying at level 40 that entire time (just to make the math easier). During that time, we both earn 2000gp per hour for work (I don't remember what it actually is, but let's use that number for the sake of argument). We both work for 20 hours each day, and we plunder for 2, and we both get 3,500gp in plunders each time. In total, we each earn 1,200,000gp in work pay and 105,000gp in plunders. Suppose further that I go to the tavern after each work/plunder shift, and I win 1/2 of the time, doubling my bet each time I do, and losing 1/2 of the time, losing all my money. I bank 400gp per day in my one-man order, and I pull out whatever gold I need if I'm just a touch short. On the other hand, you buy potions every time you're short and sell them back when you need your stats. You "make up" for the shortcomings by working further.

What happens at the end of the 30 days? I've spent pretty darn close to 1.3 million gp on my stats. In 30 days time, I might have lost 10% or so to carelessness or just needing to heal, while you have lost that same 10% plus an additional 19% on top of it to potion sales (and that's assuming someone is standing by at all times to buy your potions at 90% of what you paid). Honestly, I'd be willing to bet that percentage is significantly higher; every time you end a shift, don't have enough money for a stat, and there's no potions selling, you have to buy at retail. Every time you want to sell a potion and no one's available to buy, you're selling at retail (for a 50% loss). And of course, how many people actually buy potions at a 10% discount? From what I hear, the worlds are even more empty than they used to be and folks are complaining that they can't ever sell potions at all. So... maybe a more realistic percentage would be around 67.5%, or a 22.5% loss (buy for retail, sell at a 25% discount).

Let's assume further that you upgrade stats after every 2nd work shift (to minimize your losses); personally, I highly doubt it's that often, given that you talk about having 267k in potions. So... only 1/2 of that 1.3 million is subject to being reduced by potion sale losses. This means 650k that isn't touched (the work shifts that "make up" for the difference in costs), other than a base 10% that we'd both likely lose due to simple time inefficiencies and healing costs (you and I would both have to buy potions to actually use, and we're both going to occasionally miss starting the next workshift the minute we're able to). The other 650k is reduced by 19%, at the very least. That's 123,500gp just walking out the door, and serving no purpose beyond enriching the stall vendors.

Now, assuming you upgrade stats less often, that percentage becomes even higher. Or, if (god forbid), someone isn't available to buy potions from you at 90% of your cost every time and you have to sell at a lower percentage or at retail, that's even more money going out the door. At a conservative guess, I would think you're likely selling at 75% of your cost, and you're likely upgrading stats 2-3 times per week. Maybe more often, but I doubt it's once every other shift. At three upgrades per week, that's 11 workshifts that are "taxed" 32.5% (25% for your discount, plus 10% of the remaining 75%, or a flat 7.5% extra). Out of 14 workshifts that's 25.54% of the gold you're making that you are completely wasting. Compared to you, I'm wasting nothing; the waste that I encounter (healing costs and time inefficiencies) are the same in this scenario.

So... again, out of that 1.3 million gp, I've spent 1.17 million gp on stats. How much have you spent? 838,037.

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Saturday, August 21st 2010, 9:37pm

I still don't think so. I'm re-reading your statement for the third time, and it seems pretty clear to me, but no worries; I was mistaken in thinking you were buying this equipment early. If that's the case, I would point out this isn't a new suggestion. This is exactly what I did from about level 40 to about level 80, and I did post extensive about my experience.
Well, I did say I merely thought it was a new idea, I didn't say I was sure of that though.

It was just something I thought I'd try one day when the idea popped into my head.
Quoted from "Noble"
Well, then you are either the exception to the rule with really incredibly high stats or your memory is giving you faulty values as you had hypothesized as being a possibility. Also, I have never ever seen any player at that level with stat averages as high as the one's you quote.
And they are, to me, I don't know about W4, but in W1 most of the players around that level have usually averaged 1.55-1.6x stats (without camping or tixxing).
Perhaps, but I don't think so. Still, maybe you ought to look at the stats of the active players at level 100+ and see what their averages are?
Okay, then I challenge you to go to W1 and look at the stat averages of the average level 40-50 players.

Well, what the level 100+ players are averaging is irrelevant at level 46 though.

They typically average 2.0-2.25 in W1, but that information is only useful if you are a level 100+ and trying to compare yourself to other level 100+ players. These numbers are well above the average at level 40-50 lets say, so comparing a level 40-50's stat average to a level 100+'s is an unfair comparison given that the stat average above level 100 is so much higher and getting that same average at level 40-50 is nigh on impossible for most players unless they either camp or tixx.
Quoted from "Noble"
A level 100+ is any account/player who is of level one-hundred or above. It's simply a shortened way of saying that.
You think? I knew exactly what I was talking about. What I meant was that I don't know what the current highest level player is.
I seem to have misunderstood what you were getting at then, because I thought you were saying that you didn't know what 100+ stood for. I'm normally in orders with people from foreign countries though, so for me explaining things like this comes naturally now.
Quoted from "Noble"
Oh, and by the way, TBK, you deleted the wrong post. In the second one I had reposted to correct typographical errors and added some additional information. Since there is no "EDIT" button now I was forced to repost it a second time to edit it that way. So, now the corrections are lost, as is the additional info (and I can't remember what the info I added was now so it truly is lost). The first one was the one that needed to be deleted.
Sorry - my apologies; I'll re-enable the second post and delete the first.
Okay, thanks. I didn't know you could do that after a post had been deleted though and thought it would be lost forever.
Quoted from "Noble"
I make up for that lost gold on the day that I resell the elixirs with my work pay and/or plunders though, so the loss isn't even remotely noticeable to me so long as I can make up for it with work pay and plunders on the day that I need to sell to buy stats/upgrades/whatever I need it for.
But you don't make up that gold; that's my point. Let's say you and I are both level 40 and we play for 30 days, somehow staying at level 40 that entire time (just to make the math easier). During that time, we both earn 2000gp per hour for work (I don't remember what it actually is, but let's use that number for the sake of argument). We both work for 20 hours each day, and we plunder for 2, and we both get 3,500gp in plunders each time. In total, we each earn 1,200,000gp in work pay and 105,000gp in plunders. Suppose further that I go to the tavern after each work/plunder shift, and I win 1/2 of the time, doubling my bet each time I do, and losing 1/2 of the time, losing all my money. I bank 400gp per day in my one-man order, and I pull out whatever gold I need if I'm just a touch short. On the other hand, you buy potions every time you're short and sell them back when you need your stats. You "make up" for the shortcomings by working further.
This is the difference between you and me though, my logic tells me that in the long scheme of things I will make up the lost gold eventually, in one way or another; I've hauled over one million gold, some of that is undoubtedly making up for gold lost on past elixir sales. I also have work pay and plunders going for me as well. It's kind of like karma the way I see it, everything works out eventually.

You however are working under the premise that any gold lost is lost for good.
What happens at the end of the 30 days? I've spent pretty darn close to 1.3 million gp on my stats. In 30 days time, I might have lost 10% or so to carelessness or just needing to heal, while you have lost that same 10% plus an additional 19% on top of it to potion sales (and that's assuming someone is standing by at all times to buy your potions at 90% of what you paid). Honestly, I'd be willing to bet that percentage is significantly higher; every time you end a shift, don't have enough money for a stat, and there's no potions selling, you have to buy at retail. Every time you want to sell a potion and no one's available to buy, you are selling at retail (for a 50% loss).
That's not really a concern for me though. Usually, if I want to sell and the stalls are flooded with someone else's pots or no one is buying I'll just wait and sell another day.

If I do sell to the shop at 50% it's usually only three or four pots at most to get one last horse or character stat if I'm a little short, and since I usually have gold left over after I buy my morning horse and/or character stats with work pay I'm making up for what little I lose. (This is in W1 anyway, because I'm currently training a new horse and the stats are cheap; I don't generally sell to the shop in any other world in which I play.)
Let's assume further that you upgrade stats after every 2nd work shift (to minimize your losses); personally, I highly doubt it's that often, given that you talk about having 267k in potions.
W1-upgrading stats every shift for the horse, W6-sometimes upgrading stats every shift, W8-every other shift if at all, because my stats are so expensive I can't afford my highest stat as a non-premium only doing 8-hours per shift max and only six plunders per day., W4-I'd have to check, don't recall.
So... again, out of that 1.3 million gp, I've spent 1.17 million gp on stats. How much have you spent? 838,037.
I'm not worried about what little I lose and I'm not that obsessed with getting every bit of use out of my gold.

Also, I think my level of spending is probably higher than what you estimate, but there's no really good way to calculate it without knowing my spending habits every single day for a week and/or month, and even then that won't be a good yardstick to go by given that one day/week/month's spending might be different. Say for instance I spend a month saving for gear upgrades, well that's a month that won't be on par with my norm and will make the values be out of sync with each other and mess up any equation used to estimate my spending.
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
Tagoria: W1 EN The Redeemer, W3 EN Noble
AI Wars: W1 EN Nobility

Noble

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93

Saturday, August 21st 2010, 10:20pm

W4 upgrade path:
Level 10 Fouchard (HP)
Level 20 Peaked Spear (HP)*
Level 30 Damascus Sabre (AGI)*
Level 46 Warpike (HP)
Haven't yet decided whether I'll go with the Talus Sword, the Hardened Flail, the Shimmering Blade or the Hardened Blade. Never had the Hardened Flail or the Hardened Blade yet, so they might be interesting.

*I forgot to mention, I was also testing just how long I could hold onto other weapons as well, as I also did this with the Peaked Spear in addition to my usage of the Damascus Sabre from levels 30 to 46. Normally, I'd have upgraded the Peaked Spear to the Snake Spear at level 26 instead of keeping it to level 30.
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
Tagoria: W1 EN The Redeemer, W3 EN Noble
AI Wars: W1 EN Nobility

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Occupation: School

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94

Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 12:52am

I keep my weapons a little longer then i shuold. In W11 i went

Highlander (14)
Dragon Sword(30)

I plan on getting the blood thumb at level 44 if i get enough elixirs and my stats are good compared to some others *i think*
W6 - Holy Leader - Active
W11 - Holy Leader - Active



The Black Knight

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95

Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 5:35am

Okay, then I challenge you to go to W1 and look at the stat averages of the average level 40-50 players.

Well, what the level 100+ players are averaging is irrelevant at level 46 though.

They typically average 2.0-2.25 in W1, but that information is only useful if you are a level 100+ and trying to compare yourself to other level 100+ players. These numbers are well above the average at level 40-50 lets say, so comparing a level 40-50's stat average to a level 100+'s is an unfair comparison given that the stat average above level 100 is so much higher and getting that same average at level 40-50 is nigh on impossible for most players unless they either camp or tixx.


You make a good point, in that stat averages for one level are not going to be the same as another. I recall Falco and I both telling you this when you proposed a single average that applied for all levels and I was actually thinking about this when I posted my response to you earlier. I was a bit rushed, though (wife and I were heading out to go see Scott Pilgrim vs. The World* and go out to lunch), so I didn't expand on this, but it is a good point. Your average of 1.7 for a level 46 might be decent. My gut says "no," given your spending habits and the whole potion thing, but I could be wrong.

Looking at the mid-40s players in W1, however, would be utterly pointless. They, even more so than the mid-40s players on w4, will be the abandoned characters and uber-casual players. I hate to say it, but the only way to get any kind of worthwhile comparison of what constitutes "good" stats v. "bad" stats would be to look at a currently active world with a core group of honest (i.e., non-tixxing) competitive players, where the highest level is right in the mid-40s, or to pull out our stats from an archive somewhere (which I might have, actually). If I understand correctly, even w11 has already passed this.

Okay, thanks. I didn't know you could do that after a post had been deleted though and thought it would be lost forever.


Yes; one of the perks of being a forum moderator; I can actually edit, delete, and recover posts (as well as permanently delete them). Since I'm a big fan of having some sort of oversight on my actions, I never permanently delete anything. This gives DS the option of reviewing and reversing my decision if he feels the need.

This is the difference between you and me though, my logic tells me that in the long scheme of things I will make up the lost gold eventually, in one way or another; I've hauled over one million gold, some of that is undoubtedly making up for gold lost on past elixir sales. I also have work pay and plunders going for me as well. It's kind of like karma the way I see it, everything works out eventually.

You however are working under the premise that any gold lost is lost for good.


That's because it is. Any way you slice it, every piece of gold that you spend is forever lost, whether partially or in full. Even if you spend 10,000gp on potions and someone buys them for 9,000gp, you've still lost 1,900gp (10% stall fee removes another 900gp). You're not ever getting that back. From your comment "You however are working under the premise that any gold lost is lost for good," it almost sounds like you think you're getting it back? How? If you earn another 10,000gp later, well... guess what? All else being equal, if you hadn't bought the 10,000gp in potions in the first place, you'd have 20,000gp now, instead of 18,100gp. So why exactly should I not be working under the premise that any gold lost is lost for good?

If I do sell to the shop at 50% it's usually only three or four pots at most to get one last horse or character stat if I'm a little short, and since I usually have gold left over after I buy my morning horse and/or character stats with work pay I'm making up for what little I lose. (This is in W1 anyway, because I'm currently training a new horse and the stats are cheap; I don't generally sell to the shop in any other world in which I play.)


It sounds like you at least have an inkling, then, of the idea that selling pots is a bad idea. Why else sell "only three or four pots at most?" If selling pots is such a great idea, why not sell everything whenever you have a good buyer lined up?

W1-upgrading stats every shift for the horse, W6-sometimes upgrading stats every shift, W8-every other shift if at all, because my stats are so expensive I can't afford my highest stat as a non-premium only doing 8-hours per shift max and only six plunders per day., W4-I'd have to check, don't recall.


Well, that is one factor I didn't consider; the eight-hour workshift for non-premium players. Come to think of it, I think that is likely going to be your biggest limiting factor. No matter how efficient a player is, there is only so much gold you can reliably put together on a regular basis to buy stats, and I'd venture to say it's somewhere around a 12-hour workshift, plus 2 hours of plunders, plus perhaps 90gp x level (one winning bet at maximum on the two-player HoL). You can get that amount of gold together (with some reliability) about 50% of the time, with enough frequency that you should be able to build your stats fairly close to that. However, for a non-premium, your maximum is going to be roughly 2/3 of that. So... in essence, I take it back; you shouldn't have stats that are better than a premium player. Your stats should suck by comparison to any active and semi-competitive premium player, simply due to the higher limits they can reach with negligible risk.

Heck, I still think your idea of buying and selling pots is absolutely and complete terrible and a guaranteed path to mediocrity, but maybe despite that, your stats really aren't that bad by comparison to what you should be able to achieve otherwise.

I'm not worried about what little I lose and I'm not that obsessed with getting every bit of use out of my gold.

Also, I think my level of spending is probably higher than what you estimate, but there's no really good way to calculate it without knowing my spending habits every single day for a week and/or month, and even then that won't be a good yardstick to go by given that one day/week/month's spending might be different. Say for instance I spend a month saving for gear upgrades, well that's a month that won't be on par with my norm and will make the values be out of sync with each other and mess up any equation used to estimate my spending.


The problem with "every little bit" is that it adds up. Sure, a few hundred here or a thousand there doesn't seem like much, but when you're talking about 18-24 months worth of gameplay, you're talking about the difference between Atropos and Phil. No offense to Phil; I love the guy to death, and he's one of my favorite players in the game, but wow... he was (is?) pretty weak.

*By the way; Scott Pilgrim vs The World has got to be one of the funniest movies my wife and I have seen in a really long time. I highly recommend it.

The Black Knight

Unregistered

96

Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 6:12am

Huh... Noble, I owe you an apology. I could have sworn we had these stats archived somewhere, and as it turns out, while I did delete every single scrap of Holy War information I could find, I didn't wipe out the old DWL forum. Since the guys never changed the old admin password, I found this old thread, from back when I first decided to try to become the most powerful character in w4. This is from level 61-62, and while I was trying my best to stay fairly strong, I wasn't trying to compete with Atropos yet. Granted, this is from 16 levels further along than you currently are, and some of these folks did tix, but this is a pretty good indicator of what competitive players could achieve. As you can see from the ratios in the 2nd table, 1.7 would be pretty darn good. This was with the eight-hour work schedules, as well, but also before I started hitting the tavern, before I left DWL, and before I started my one-man merc order.

Granted, there was a heck of a lot of inefficiency that I was able to remove by leaving DWL (not getting sucked into losing battles for weak allies that we should have dumped, getting merc pay whenever BoW or DWL needed to drop cash and either couldn't or didn't need to hire other mercs, not having to donate, having a one-man bank order, etc.), but even Atropos wasn't much higher than 1.7.

[table='7'][*] [*] [*] [*] [*] [*] [*]

[*]Name[*] Level[*] Str[*] Agl[*] Att[*] Def[*] Sta[*]
[*]Atropos [*] 62[*] 128[*] 110[*] 115[*] 113[*] 102[*]
[*]BadCo [*] 61[*] 125[*] 116[*] 108[*] 111[*] 100[*]
[*]Meph [*] 61[*] 125[*] 109[*] 113[*] 108[*] 94[*]
[*]Bercilak [*] 61[*] 115[*] 107[*] 108[*] 104[*] 96[*]
[*]Melkor13[*] 61[*] 110[*] 107[*] 100[*] 100[*] 100[*]
[*]Zhao Yun [*] 62[*] 109[*] 115[*] 101[*] 100[*] 90[*]
[*]The Black Knight [*] 62[*] 106[*] 111[*] 100[*] 95[*] 101[*]
[*]Zao [*] 62[*] 106[*] 104[*] 101[*] 100[*] 93[*]
[*]Pyscho Joe[*] 61[*] 107[*] 103[*] 100[*] 100[*] 90[*]
[*]erialc [*] 62[*] 106[*] 100[*] 100[*] 90[*] 90[*]
[*]falcotron[*] 61[*] 95[*] 100[*] 98[*] 92[*] 99[*]
[*]Bigger Phil [*] 61[*] 96[*] 92[*] 93[*] 92[*] 87[*]
[*]vedauwoo [*] 61[*] 100[*] 87[*] 92[*] 85[*] 86[*]
[*]Aithne [*] 61[*] 100[*] 89[*] 92[*] 80[*] 80[*]
[*]redbloodtears [*] 62[*] 100[*] 80[*] 83[*] 80[*] 80[*]

[/table]

[table='6'][*] [*] [*] [*] [*] [*]

[*]Name[*] H-Att[*] H-Def[*] H-Sta[*] Personal[*] Everything[*]
[*]Atropos [*] 100[*] 75[*] 75[*] 1.83[*] 1.65[*]
[*]BadCo [*] 85[*] 85[*] 85[*] 1.84[*] 1.67[*]
[*]Meph [*] 106[*] 76[*] 67[*] 1.8[*] 1.64[*]
[*]Bercilak [*] 100[*] 85[*] 85[*] 1.74[*] 1.64[*]
[*]Melkor13[*] 90[*] 88[*] 87[*] 1.7[*] 1.6[*]
[*]Zhao Yun [*] 100[*] 80[*] 70[*] 1.66[*] 1.54[*]
[*]The Black Knight [*] 80[*] 75[*] 85[*] 1.65[*] 1.52[*]
[*]Zao [*] 120[*] 100[*] 100[*] 1.63[*] 1.66[*]
[*]Pyscho Joe[*] 101[*] 100[*] 100[*] 1.64[*] 1.64[*]
[*]erialc [*] 88[*] 73[*] 73[*] 1.57[*] 1.45[*]
[*]falcotron[*] 84[*] 77[*] 83[*] 1.59[*] 1.49[*]
[*]Bigger Phil [*] 78[*] 64[*] 64[*] 1.51[*] 1.36[*]
[*]vedauwoo [*] 87[*] 75[*] 81[*] 1.48[*] 1.42[*]
[*]Aithne [*] 91[*] 84[*] 73[*] 1.45[*] 1.41[*]
[*]redbloodtears [*] 105[*] 89[*] 96[*] 1.36[*] 1.44[*]

[/table]

My apologies for the formatting, by the way; table formatting on this forum absolutely stinks.

Noble

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97

Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 6:32am

Well, what the level 100+ players are averaging is irrelevant at level 46 though.
They typically average 2.0-2.25 in W1, but that information is only useful if you are a level 100+ and trying to compare yourself to other level 100+ players. These numbers are well above the average at level 40-50 lets say, so comparing a level 40-50's stat average to a level 100+'s is an unfair comparison given that the stat average above level 100 is so much higher and getting that same average at level 40-50 is nigh on impossible for most players unless they either camp or tixx.
You make a good point, in that stat averages for one level are not going to be the same as another. I recall Falco and I both telling you this when you proposed a single average that applied for all levels and I was actually thinking about this when I posted my response to you earlier. I was a bit rushed, though (wife and I were heading out to go see Scott Pilgrim vs. The World* and go out to lunch), so I didn't expand on this, but it is a good point. Your average of 1.7 for a level 46 might be decent. My gut says "no," given your spending habits and the whole potion thing, but I could be wrong.
With experience has come knowledge, and I now have a better understanding of what good stat averages at different levels are (without camping).
Looking at the mid-40s players in W1, however, would be utterly pointless. They, even more so than the mid-40s players on w4, will be the abandoned characters and uber-casual players. I hate to say it, but the only way to get any kind of worthwhile comparison of what constitutes "good" stats v. "bad" stats would be to look at a currently active world with a core group of honest (i.e., non-tixxing) competitive players, where the highest level is right in the mid-40s, or to pull out our stats from an archive somewhere (which I might have, actually). If I understand correctly, even w11 has already passed this.
There is no guarantee of that actually. I have several low/mid-level players in my own order on W1 who are quite active.
You however are working under the premise that any gold lost is lost for good.
That's because it is. Any way you slice it, every piece of gold that you spend is forever lost, whether partially or in full. Even if you spend 10,000gp on potions and someone buys them for 9,000gp, you've still lost 1,900gp (10% stall fee removes another 900gp). You're not ever getting that back. From your comment "You however are working under the premise that any gold lost is lost for good," it almost sounds like you think you're getting it back? How? If you earn another 10,000gp later, well... guess what? All else being equal, if you hadn't bought the 10,000gp in potions in the first place, you'd have 20,000gp now, instead of 18,100gp. So why exactly should I not be working under the premise that any gold lost is lost for good?
I will grant you that gold spent on stats is lost for good, but gold lost on elixir sales is not. (A measly 79 gold loss on a holy sold at 792 isn't really a big inconvenience and can be made up either later that day or the next day when one collects their wages and reinvests in pots.-Elixir loss is much smaller by comparison, and easier to be made up by other means. This reinvested gold is then kept safely in one's inventory in the elixirs until they are sold again, and then the cycle begins again and repeats itself.
Quoted from "Noble"
If I do sell to the shop at 50% it's usually only three or four pots at most to get one last horse or character stat if I'm a little short, and since I usually have gold left over after I buy my morning horse and/or character stats with work pay I'm making up for what little I lose. (This is in W1 anyway, because I'm currently training a new horse and the stats are cheap; I don't generally sell to the shop in any other world in which I play.)
It sounds like you at least have an inkling, then, of the idea that selling pots is a bad idea. Why else sell "only three or four pots at most?" If selling pots is such a great idea, why not sell everything whenever you have a good buyer lined up?
Usually I just sell them to the shop when the stalls are flooded, I don't need all that much, and don't particularly feel like waiting.

That was something I forgot to mention initially.
Quoted from "Noble"
W1-upgrading stats every shift for the horse, W6-sometimes upgrading stats every shift, W8-every other shift if at all, because my stats are so expensive I can't afford my highest stat as a non-premium only doing 8-hours per shift max and only six plunders per day., W4-I'd have to check, don't recall.
Well, that is one factor I didn't consider; the eight-hour workshift for non-premium players. Come to think of it, I think that is likely going to be your biggest limiting factor. No matter how efficient a player is, there is only so much gold you can reliably put together on a regular basis to buy stats, and I'd venture to say it's somewhere around a 12-hour workshift, plus 2 hours of plunders, plus perhaps 90gp x level (one winning bet at maximum on the two-player HoL). You can get that amount of gold together (with some reliability) about 50% of the time, with enough frequency that you should be able to build your stats fairly close to that. However, for a non-premium, your maximum is going to be roughly 2/3 of that. So... in essence, I take it back; you shouldn't have stats that are better than a premium player. Your stats should suck by comparison to any active and semi-competitive premium player, simply due to the higher limits they can reach with negligible risk.
And it is, and has always been. Once you hit that wall as a non-premium player where you can no longer afford higher stats your stat average begins to fall.

Premium players might hit this wall eventually too, but it would come much higher up in the stat average.

My second biggest limiting factor is my addiction to hauling (just love doing it) which causes me to miss hours when I could have my character at work.
Heck, I still think your idea of buying and selling pots is absolutely and completely terrible and a guaranteed path to mediocrity, but maybe despite that, your stats really aren't that bad by comparison to what you should be able to achieve otherwise.
Better than keeping it all on hand all the time for all the world to take though, and I'm losing far less by buying and selling than I would be just running around heavily gold-laden and unsafe all the time.
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
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Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 6:33am

Hmm... That's weird, even the quotes where it was I who said it show up as being quoted from TBK. Some kind of error there I think. ?(
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
Tagoria: W1 EN The Redeemer, W3 EN Noble
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The Black Knight

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Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 9:08am

I will grant you that gold spent on stats is lost for good, but gold lost on elixir sales is not. (A measly 79 gold loss on a holy sold at 792 isn't really a big inconvenience and can be made up either later that day or the next day when one collects their wages and reinvests in pots.-Elixir loss is much smaller by comparison, and easier to be made up by other means. This reinvested gold is then kept safely in one's inventory in the elixirs until they are sold again, and then the cycle begins again and repeats itself.


You just don't get it, do you? First, you didn't just lose 79gp. You lost whatever the difference was between your purchase price and your selling price. If you bought at 900, sold at 792, and took a 10% loss from the stall fee, that's 187gp, and yeah; that doesn't sound like much, but losing 179gp out of 900gp? That's a heck of a big chunk of cash. And (here's the part you seem to keep missing)... it all adds up. Let me repeat that, since you are consistently missing this point: all the gold you waste on a daily basis (even if it's only 100gp per day, or even just 50gp/day) is cumulative. You could be using that gold to boost your stats, instead of giving it all to the stall vendors. If you instead go to the tavern, it is almost impossible (in the long term) not to end up perfectly even (no gold lost, no gold won). Also, I would point out that gold spent on stats isn't "lost," unless your goal is somehow to play the game as a potion collector and not be competitive in any other way. If the whole point of the game is to remain consistently mediocre with your stats and build up a massive collection of potions, then you're certainly on the right path. If, instead, your goal is to remain competitive or (as it seems in your case) to simply be competitive within your own little sub-group, then (AGAIN) pots are a terrible way to go due to the little dribs and drabs of gold that you're wasting on a regular basis. The tavern is a significantly more effective means to improve stats, in the long run.

And exactly by what "other means" is the gold "made up?" Are you conjuring gold out of thin air? You still haven't explained this magical source of gold that is making up for the gold you waste on potions.

Usually I just sell them to the shop when the stalls are flooded, I don't need all that much, and don't particularly feel like waiting.

That was something I forgot to mention initially.


You sound a lot like the guy who spends $10 going to Burger King one day, buys a dozen songs on iTunes the next day, takes his girlfriend to the movies the day after, etc., then wonders why he's always flat broke by the time payday rolls around.

Better than keeping it all on hand all the time for all the world to take though, and I'm losing far less by buying and selling than I would be just running around heavily gold-laden and unsafe all the time.


No argument there and at no point during my argument did I ever suggest you do that. However, buying and selling pots is a hell of a lot worse than losing it all one day to the tavern, then doubling your money the next day at the tavern and spending every dime on your stats.

The Black Knight

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Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 9:12am

Hmm... That's weird, even the quotes where it was I who said it show up as being quoted from TBK. Some kind of error there I think. ?(

You have to have the "[/quote]" tag at the end there, to offset the starting tag.

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Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 10:34am

I will grant you that gold spent on stats is lost for good, but gold lost on elixir sales is not. (A measly 79 gold loss on a holy sold at 792 isn't really a big inconvenience and can be made up either later that day or the next day when one collects their wages and reinvests in pots.-Elixir loss is much smaller by comparison, and easier to be made up by other means. This reinvested gold is then kept safely in one's inventory in the elixirs until they are sold again, and then the cycle begins again and repeats itself.
You just don't get it, do you? First, you didn't just lose 79gp. You lost whatever the difference was between your purchase price and your selling price. If you bought at 900, sold at 792, and took a 10% loss from the stall fee, that's 187gp, and yeah; that doesn't sound like much, but losing 179gp out of 900gp? That's a heck of a big chunk of cash. And (here's the part you seem to keep missing)... it all adds up. Let me repeat that, since you are consistently missing this point: all the gold you waste on a daily basis (even if it's only 100gp per day, or even just 50gp/day) is cumulative. You could be using that gold to boost your stats, instead of giving it all to the stall vendors. If you instead go to the tavern, it is almost impossible (in the long term) not to end up perfectly even (no gold lost, no gold won). Also, I would point out that gold spent on stats isn't "lost," unless your goal is somehow to play the game as a potion collector and not be competitive in any other way. If the whole point of the game is to remain consistently mediocre with your stats and build up a massive collection of potions, then you're certainly on the right path. If, instead, your goal is to remain competitive or (as it seems in your case) to simply be competitive within your own little sub-group, then (AGAIN) pots are a terrible way to go due to the little dribs and drabs of gold that you're wasting on a regular basis. The tavern is a significantly more effective means to improve stats, in the long run.

And exactly by what "other means" is the gold "made up?" Are you conjuring gold out of thin air? You still haven't explained this magical source of gold that is making up for the gold you waste on potions.

I didn't miss anything, I knew that.

Since I have no way of knowing what price I've bought pot number 253 at for instance, I have no real way to calculate how much I've lost in the first place, so I chose to disregard this variable as it was impossible to define with any reasonable amount of accuracy. All I know is a lot of them time I buy pots at minimum in the stalls, probably more often than not I'd say, and I go to the elixir shop when there aren't any good prices in the stalls.

Could you stop taking me for a fool now? To me, it basically has sounded like you've been talking down to me for days now, assuming I know little to nothing and that every one of my opinions on stat averages was wrong.

I've already explained it three times I believe, but once again, by hauling, plundering, and working.

Also, after losing more than half of my work pay at the tavern numerous times in a row without winning back any of it and/or even breaking even I decided never to return there. You could talk to me about the subject 'til you were blue in the face and it still wouldn't convince me, for I've lost too much there already and don't want to risk losing any more. I don't ever double my money at the tavern, it's a nice thought, but it has no basis in my reality considering the rotten luck I have when I go there. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of gold at this point. That gold would have done well to go to stats, but no at others' suggestions I went to the tavern and blew it all. It's a magnificent way to lose money.
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
Tagoria: W1 EN The Redeemer, W3 EN Noble
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Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 10:58am

Huh... Noble, I owe you an apology. I could have sworn we had these stats archived somewhere, and as it turns out, while I did delete every single scrap of Holy War information I could find, I didn't wipe out the old DWL forum. Since the guys never changed the old admin password, I found this old thread, from back when I first decided to try to become the most powerful character in w4. This is from level 61-62, and while I was trying my best to stay fairly strong, I wasn't trying to compete with Atropos yet. Granted, this is from 16 levels further along than you currently are, and some of these folks did tix, but this is a pretty good indicator of what competitive players could achieve. As you can see from the ratios in the 2nd table, 1.7 would be pretty darn good. This was with the eight-hour work schedules, as well, but also before I started hitting the tavern, before I left DWL, and before I started my one-man merc order.

Granted, there was a heck of a lot of inefficiency that I was able to remove by leaving DWL (not getting sucked into losing battles for weak allies that we should have dumped, getting merc pay whenever BoW or DWL needed to drop cash and either couldn't or didn't need to hire other mercs, not having to donate, having a one-man bank order, etc.), but even Atropos wasn't much higher than 1.7.

My apologies for the formatting, by the way; table formatting on this forum absolutely stinks.
Strangely, I somehow never saw this post when I was online earlier, presumably because I was typing up my own reply to one of your previous messages at the same exact time.

Well thank you for that.

It would seem I actually do know what I'm talking about, and though I never doubted my expertise on the subject it is nice for someone else to acknowledge it.

I'd found that once I'd stopped jumping into battles that happened at inconvenient times my stats went up, as a result of having more work pay.-This was an experiment I conducted in W8. Most of the battles that happened there when I started this never seemed to occur when I was online and/or awake anyway, so it seemed silly to jump into them when I wasn't going to be around. Thus I figured, "why not just use the time working instead," and I've ended up with a stronger character there because of it. Stronger than any I'd had in any other world previously.

The formatting looked fine to me, it was easily readable/understandable.
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
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Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 11:13am

This is from level 61-62, and while I was trying my best to stay fairly strong, I wasn't trying to compete with Atropos yet. Granted, this is from 16 levels further along than you currently are, and some of these folks did tix, but this is a pretty good indicator of what competitive players could achieve. As you can see from the ratios in the 2nd table, 1.7 would be pretty darn good. This was with the eight-hour work schedules, as well, but also before I started hitting the tavern, before I left DWL, and before I started my one-man merc order.

Granted, there was a heck of a lot of inefficiency that I was able to remove by leaving DWL (not getting sucked into losing battles for weak allies that we should have dumped, getting merc pay whenever BoW or DWL needed to drop cash and either couldn't or didn't need to hire other mercs, not having to donate, having a one-man bank order, etc.), but even Atropos wasn't much higher than 1.7.
Forgot to mention, my highest stat average from levels 60-69 thus far has been in W8 and has consistently been between 1.75 and 1.78.
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
Tagoria: W1 EN The Redeemer, W3 EN Noble
AI Wars: W1 EN Nobility

The Black Knight

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104

Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 6:51pm

Since I have no way of knowing what price I've bought pot number 253 at for instance, I have no real way to calculate how much I've lost in the first place, so I chose to disregard this variable as it was impossible to define with any reasonable amount of accuracy. All I know is a lot of them time I buy pots at minimum in the stalls, probably more often than not I'd say, and I go to the elixir shop when there aren't any good prices in the stalls.


So... you ignore your gold loss, and that somehow means you don't lose it? Kinda like, "if I don't see it, it doesn't happen?"

Could you stop taking me for a fool now? To me, it basically has sounded like you've been talking down to me for days now, assuming I know little to nothing and that every one of my opinions on stat averages was wrong.


My apologies for that. I must admit you have been frustrating me to no end on this thread for your continued and blatant refusal to see some of the most basic points, and my past history with you shows that you are fairly sharp at times but have this truly remarkable ability to either completely miss or refuse to see some of the most elementary mathematical truths. Statistical sample sizes, for example (which, unsurprisingly, is leading to the following point you make). You see a dozen or so instances of something, then assume you've seen the entire point, declare yourself an expert on the subject, and then post on the forum. Given that you're obviously fairly smart, this is extraordinarily frustrating. What makes it more frustrating is that you also (on occasion) put up posts like this where you claim to have discovered some new method of upgrading equipment, buying stats, or what have you that is more efficient. The rest of us have been there, done that, found a better way to do it than you're suggesting, and you ignore that advice each time. You're so close to understand a lot of this, and yet so far away.

So maybe I am talking down to you, but it's not intentional at all. I'm trying to teach you how to play this game more efficiently (since you seem to be interested), but it doesn't sound like you want to learn.

Also, after losing more than half of my work pay at the tavern numerous times in a row without winning back any of it and/or even breaking even I decided never to return there. You could talk to me about the subject 'til you were blue in the face and it still wouldn't convince me, for I've lost too much there already and don't want to risk losing any more. I don't ever double my money at the tavern, it's a nice thought, but it has no basis in my reality considering the rotten luck I have when I go there. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of gold at this point. That gold would have done well to go to stats, but no at others' suggestions I went to the tavern and blew it all. It's a magnificent way to lose money.


It is a magnificent way to lose money. However, it's also a magnificent way to win money. If you look at any random system over a short term, you'll see dips and valleys. Even over a longer term, you can see extended shortfalls. However, when you pursue that random system for months on end (like I did), the randomness evens out and you start to see however the odds are skewed. In professional gambling, it's always going to be in the house's favor (assuming we're discussing games of pure chance). However, the various tavern options in Holy War are completely balanced; neither in your favor nor against you. If you absolutely refuse to see that and choose not to follow it, that's your choice, but don't proclaim that this method of buying and selling potions is some great option when it very clearly is not.

It would seem I actually do know what I'm talking about, and though I never doubted my expertise on the subject it is nice for someone else to acknowledge it.


In some areas, yes. In others, no. Yet you insist that you do, you refuse to learn, and that is what stops you from being a much better player.

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Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 9:05pm

Since I have no way of knowing what price I've bought pot number 253 at for instance, I have no real way to calculate how much I've lost in the first place, so I chose to disregard this variable as it was impossible to define with any reasonable amount of accuracy. All I know is a lot of them time I buy pots at minimum in the stalls, probably more often than not I'd say, and I go to the elixir shop when there aren't any good prices in the stalls.
So... you ignore your gold loss, and that somehow means you don't lose it? Kinda like, "if I don't see it, it doesn't happen?"
Could you stop taking me for a fool now? To me, it basically has sounded like you've been talking down to me for days now, assuming I know little to nothing and that every one of my opinions on stat averages was wrong.
My apologies for that. I must admit you have been frustrating me to no end on this thread for your continued and blatant refusal to see some of the most basic points, and my past history with you shows that you are fairly sharp at times but have this truly remarkable ability to either completely miss or refuse to see some of the most elementary mathematical truths. Statistical sample sizes, for example (which, unsurprisingly, is leading to the following point you make). You see a dozen or so instances of something, then assume you've seen the entire point, declare yourself an expert on the subject, and then post on the forum. Given that you're obviously fairly smart, this is extraordinarily frustrating. What makes it more frustrating is that you also (on occasion) put up posts like this where you claim to have discovered some new method of upgrading equipment, buying stats, or what have you that is more efficient. The rest of us have been there, done that, found a better way to do it than you're suggesting, and you ignore that advice each time. You're so close to understand a lot of this, and yet so far away.
Also, after losing more than half of my work pay at the tavern numerous times in a row without winning back any of it and/or even breaking even I decided never to return there. You could talk to me about the subject 'til you were blue in the face and it still wouldn't convince me, for I've lost too much there already and don't want to risk losing any more. I don't ever double my money at the tavern, it's a nice thought, but it has no basis in my reality considering the rotten luck I have when I go there. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of gold at this point. That gold would have done well to go to stats, but no at others' suggestions I went to the tavern and blew it all. It's a magnificent way to lose money.
It is a magnificent way to lose money. However, it's also a magnificent way to win money.
It would seem I actually do know what I'm talking about, and though I never doubted my expertise on the subject it is nice for someone else to acknowledge it.
In some areas, yes. In others, no. Yet you insist that you do, you refuse to learn, and that is what stops you from being a much better player.
Oh, I don't ignore it, in fact I'm actually quite mindful of it and have in the past often pursued ways to minimize my losses. At one time, I only bought and sold consecrated elixirs because the percentage of loss on them when buying at the shop and selling for whatever I wanted to sell them at was lower than say holies or blesseds, I stopped doing that though because it would take a horribly long amount of time to sell all of them given the considerably higher amount of them which I would have to stock up and eventually sell.

The feeling is mutual from my end as well then.

Well, it's not that I'm missing anything here (that I know of), it is merely that I like mathematical problems for which I can define some sort of equation to easily calculate an end result. With gold loss though, it isn't that easy. I don't know what I've bought all the pots at, so I can't calculate how much I have in them or how much I am losing when I sell them for value X when I bought them at value Y and Y is an unknown number which I cannot define. Sure, I could calculate it as a ranged value going from buying between 900 and 792 and then selling between 881 (I think that's the max they can be sold at now) and 792, but it wouldn't be too terribly accurate. It would just be a very basic yardstick to go by for just a quick estimate of possible gold loss.

I've done more research into this than that though, I didn't do this in just one world, I've been researching stats across four different worlds now, observing my own stats and the stats of those around me at different level ranges.

Point of clarification, I never said I was an expert.

I believe I should clarify here as well, I never said anywhere that I had discovered some entirely new method. It was simply a method which was new to me and which I had not tried previously. If I had somehow implied that it was a new method, I wasn't aware of it. I had simply tried out this thing that falco had mentioned long ago earlier on in this thread that Bogong had done. And I had even quoted that very post in my initial message on here and went on to further explain that doing this did work for me, but you seemed to have missed the point I was trying to make by doing that somehow.

Quoted from "falcotron"

Frequent Upgrades?
If I remember correctly, Mangle bought the snake spear, and then every weapon from the gladius to the Scottish sword, while Bogong kept his dragon sword until level 44.
If you know of some way in which to actually win gold at the tavern, I'm listening. Certainly nothing I've tried has worked all that well.
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
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Sunday, August 22nd 2010, 9:16pm

I found the range to be 10-21% loss for selling pots when I calculated it up just now. It's 10% if you buy and sell at minimum and 21% if you buy at the shop and sell at minimum.
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
Tagoria: W1 EN The Redeemer, W3 EN Noble
AI Wars: W1 EN Nobility

The Black Knight

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107

Monday, August 23rd 2010, 7:26am

Well, it's not that I'm missing anything here (that I know of), it is merely that I like mathematical problems for which I can define some sort of equation to easily calculate an end result. With gold loss though, it isn't that easy. I don't know what I've bought all the pots at, so I can't calculate how much I have in them or how much I am losing when I sell them for value X when I bought them at value Y and Y is an unknown number which I cannot define. Sure, I could calculate it as a ranged value going from buying between 900 and 792 and then selling between 881 (I think that's the max they can be sold at now) and 792, but it wouldn't be too terribly accurate. It would just be a very basic yardstick to go by for just a quick estimate of possible gold loss.


This is simultaneously the reason why I still argue with you (most people I would simply ignore, if they made the kind of claims you do); because I know you enjoy looking at these things as much as I do and the fact that I've always felt that mathematics and statistics were always pretty black or white; no shades of gray. You could always prove a given point (assuming your audience could understand it). I keep hoping that one day, you will. Most people don't, and never will.

I believe I should clarify here as well, I never said anywhere that I had discovered some entirely new method. It was simply a method which was new to me and which I had not tried previously. If I had somehow implied that it was a new method, I wasn't aware of it. I had simply tried out this thing that falco had mentioned long ago earlier on in this thread that Bogong had done. And I had even quoted that very post in my initial message on here and went on to further explain that doing this did work for me, but you seemed to have missed the point I was trying to make by doing that somehow.


Then I offer my apologies. From your original comments, I got the impression you were saying this was some new method you were using which was achieving incredible results. My reaction was to correct those claims, so that other players wouldn't be misled by what I felt were erroneous and exaggerated claims. For the record, this is actually the same method I used (partially) to catch up to the leaders in world 4; I would often lag up to 20 levels behind on my equipment (other than my weapon), and usually much further behind for my horse (which I never trained to any significant degree until level 80). This is how I was able (along with saving and later using my level up bonuses) to go from being just another player to being one of the top 20 players, stat-wise. I was perpetually stuck there, however, and while a fair chunk of obsessiveness moved me into the top 10, I only really moved up (and eventually became the strongest player in w4, both in personal and total stats, along with completely current and updated equipment across the board) when I left DWL, stopped showing up for all the GHL battles (along with battles for all of DWL's other allies, other than BoW), created a one-man merc order, and started ruthlessly abusing the order donation system.

If you know of some way in which to actually win gold at the tavern, I'm listening. Certainly nothing I've tried has worked all that well.


There is never any way to guarantee a win at the tavern. However, it's a simple example of the Law of Averages. The smaller your sample size, the wider the variation. The bigger the sample size, the smaller the variation. This is the fundamental principle I'm talking about, and it's also the same principle I've been arguing with you since the very first time we ever argued on this forum. Namely, if you go to the tavern once, it's entirely possible that you lose everything (50%). Go twice, and that chance drops to 25%. Three times, it drops to 12.5%, and so on. Granted, even losing more often than you win can still suck, so losing 7 times out of 10 visits can seem like a terrible result, but when you stretch that out to 100 visits, the chances of losing 70 times out of 100 become significantly smaller, and the chances of winning 50 times out of 100 (or very close to that) become significantly higher.

Unfortunately, since I've never had a single statistics class, I don't know how to explain this (it's just something I understand instinctively, with some help from 30 years of playing PnP role playing games), but I would be willing to bet that Ved could show the math behind this. As you increase your sample size, the deviation from the middle (i.e., 50%, or a completely neutral win/loss ratio) becomes significantly smaller. In English, the more you bet, the less you lose (and, coincidentally, the less you win). While that normally would mean that gambling is a complete waste of time, Holy War is one instance where, quite often, having a specific amount of gold doesn't help; you either need a fair chunk more (for a personal stat) or a fair chunk less (for a horse stat). Anything other than that leads to gold loss.

Further... you can manipulate the outcomes of your Tavern wins & losses to increase the frequency of wins at the expense of larger losses. Bet once at 2-player HoL (with a 50% chance of winning), followed by a bet for the same amount at Thimberlig (33% chance of winning) if you lose, followed by a bet at 4-player HoL (with a 25% chance of winning) if you lose that. This gives you a 75% chance of winning your stake and a 25% chance of losing 3 times your stake.

All of this means you can convert a "wasteful" amount of gold (let's say 16k, if you need 18k to improve a personal stat and 10k to improve a horse stat) into a "useful" amount of gold. Win a single 2k bet, and you have your personal stat. Lose 6k and you improve a horse stat. On average, you improve a personal stat three times, and improve a horse stat once. That results in 18k spent three times (54k) and 10k spent once, for a total of 64k spent out of 64k earned. By contrast, if you buy pots that whole time, you'll probably spending about 52k, while the potion vendor gets the other 12k.

I found the range to be 10-21% loss for selling pots when I calculated it up just now. It's 10% if you buy and sell at minimum and 21% if you buy at the shop and sell at minimum.


If that's something you're okay with living with, then that's entirely up to you. As I've shown, there's a significantly more efficient method available to you, if you choose to use it. Also, I'd be curious how you ever only lose 10%? Can you resell a potion at the same cost that you bought it for? I'm not trying to be sarcastic; I honestly don't remember.

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Wednesday, August 25th 2010, 8:01pm

Well, it's not that I'm missing anything here (that I know of), it is merely that I like mathematical problems for which I can define some sort of equation to easily calculate an end result. With gold loss though, it isn't that easy. I don't know what I've bought all the pots at, so I can't calculate how much I have in them or how much I am losing when I sell them for value X when I bought them at value Y and Y is an unknown number which I cannot define. Sure, I could calculate it as a ranged value going from buying between 900 and 792 and then selling between 881 (I think that's the max they can be sold at now) and 792, but it wouldn't be too terribly accurate. It would just be a very basic yardstick to go by for just a quick estimate of possible gold loss.
This is simultaneously the reason why I still argue with you (most people I would simply ignore, if they made the kind of claims you do); because I know you enjoy looking at these things as much as I do and the fact that I've always felt that mathematics and statistics were always pretty black or white; no shades of gray. You could always prove a given point (assuming your audience could understand it). I keep hoping that one day, you will. Most people don't, and never will.
I believe I should clarify here as well, I never said anywhere that I had discovered some entirely new method. It was simply a method which was new to me and which I had not tried previously. If I had somehow implied that it was a new method, I wasn't aware of it. I had simply tried out this thing that falco had mentioned long ago earlier on in this thread that Bogong had done. And I had even quoted that very post in my initial message on here and went on to further explain that doing this did work for me, but you seemed to have missed the point I was trying to make by doing that somehow.
Then I offer my apologies. From your original comments, I got the impression you were saying this was some new method you were using which was achieving incredible results. My reaction was to correct those claims, so that other players wouldn't be misled by what I felt were erroneous and exaggerated claims. For the record, this is actually the same method I used (partially) to catch up to the leaders in world 4; I would often lag up to 20 levels behind on my equipment (other than my weapon), and usually much further behind for my horse (which I never trained to any significant degree until level 80).
I found the range to be 10-21% loss for selling pots when I calculated it up just now. It's 10% if you buy and sell at minimum and 21% if you buy at the shop and sell at minimum.
If that's something you're okay with living with, then that's entirely up to you. As I've shown, there's a significantly more efficient method available to you, if you choose to use it. Also, I'd be curious how you ever only lose 10%? Can you resell a potion at the same cost that you bought it for? I'm not trying to be sarcastic; I honestly don't remember.
As do I, as do I.

Apology accepted. Interesting. I may shortly see if I can manage to catch up a bit myself.

Yes, you can buy and sell a potion for 44/80/396/792/1584/3960 gold. Also, interestingly enough it's possible to lose no gold at all on an elixir purchase/sale, assuming you could buy them at minimum and then sell at maximum, that's really unlikely though.

Oh, and I sold off most of my excess elixirs and all of my old gear, stat average is now 1.85x level and rising without camping or tixxing. :thumbsup: Is that impressive?
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
Tagoria: W1 EN The Redeemer, W3 EN Noble
AI Wars: W1 EN Nobility

The Black Knight

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109

Thursday, August 26th 2010, 2:20am

Oh, and I sold off most of my excess elixirs and all of my old gear, stat average is now 1.85x level and rising without camping or tixxing. :thumbsup: Is that impressive?

That IS impressive.

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110

Thursday, August 26th 2010, 3:08am

Oh, and I sold off most of my excess elixirs and all of my old gear, stat average is now 1.85x level and rising without camping or tixxing. :thumbsup: Is that impressive?
That IS impressive.
Awesome!

One of my goals has been achieved then. 8)
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
Tagoria: W1 EN The Redeemer, W3 EN Noble
AI Wars: W1 EN Nobility

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111

Saturday, January 22nd 2011, 7:12pm

Thought I'd get this thread back on track.

W1 upgrade path:
Dagger 2-3 (HP)
Short Sword 3-4 (AGI)
Copper Sword 4-5 (AGI)
Iron Sword 5-8 (HP)
Big Sword 8-8 (HP)
Cross Sword 8-8 (AGI)
Big Sword 8-14 (HP)
Highlander Sword 14-19 (HP)
Long Sword 20-21 (HP)
Corrugated Sword 22-30 (HP)
Dragoon Sword 30-36 (HP)
Battle Hammer 36-38 (HP)
Peaked Beast 38-44 (AGI)
Warpike 44-48 (HP)
Scottish Sword 49-54 (AGI)
Shimmering Blade 55-60 (HP)
Winged Lance 60-68 (HP)
Stonesplitter 68-78(HP)
Dented Flail 78-86 (HP)
Starswinger 86-92 (HP)
Martyr Sabre 92-98 (AGI)
Dragon's Tongue 98-106 (HP)
Battle Axe 106-present (112) (HP)*

W6 weapon path:
Corrugated Sword ?-30 (AGI)
Snake Spear 30-32 (AGI)
Dragon Sword 32-38 (AGI)
Gladius 38-40 (AGI)
Peaked Beast 40-46 (HP)
Warpike 46-51(HP)
Snake Tongue 52-57 (HP)
Shimmering blade 58-63 (AGI)
Flamingsword 64-67 (AGI)
Moonblade 68-70 (AGI)
Heliosblade 70-78 (AGI)
Dented Flail 78-86 (HP)
Scythe of Death 86-98 (HP)
Stonebreaker 98-present (102) (HP)

W8 weapon path:
Cross Sword 7-9 (AGI)
Fouchard 10-20 (HP)
Peaked Spear 20-25 (HP)
Snake Spear 26-29 (AGI)
Damascus Sabre 30-39 (AGI)
Peaked Beast 40-44 (AGI)
Blood Thumb 44-48 (AGI)
Sickle Axe 48-54 (HP)
Talus sword 54-62 (AGI)
Winged Lance 62-66 (HP)
Battle Halberd 66-74 (HP)
Tyrant Axe 74-present (76) (HP)

W4 upgrade path:
Fouchard 10-20 (HP)
Peaked Spear 20-30 (HP)
Damascus Sabre 30-46 (AGI)
Warpike 46-54 (HP)
Talus Sword 54-present [58} (AGI)

*I'd actually wanted to buy a Blade Flail, but was too busy training personal stats and didn't get the gold in time.
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
Tagoria: W1 EN The Redeemer, W3 EN Noble
AI Wars: W1 EN Nobility

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112

Saturday, October 29th 2011, 3:26am

Bumping this up.
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
Tagoria: W1 EN The Redeemer, W3 EN Noble
AI Wars: W1 EN Nobility

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113

Monday, November 19th 2012, 5:10am

W1 upgrade path:
Dagger 2-3 (HP)
Short Sword 3-4 (AGI)
Copper Sword 4-5 (AGI)
Iron Sword 5-8 (HP)
Big Sword 8-8 (HP)
Cross Sword 8-8 (AGI)
Big Sword 8-14 (HP)
Highlander Sword 14-19 (HP)
Long Sword 20-21 (HP)
Corrugated Sword 22-30 (HP)
Dragoon Sword 30-36 (HP)
Battle Hammer 36-38 (HP)
Peaked Beast 38-44 (AGI)
Warpike 44-48 (HP)
Scottish Sword 49-54 (AGI)
Shimmering Blade 55-60 (HP)
Winged Lance 60-68 (HP)
Stonesplitter 68-78(HP)
Dented Flail 78-86 (HP)
Starswinger 86-92 (HP)
Martyr Sabre 92-98 (AGI)
Dragon's Tongue 98-106 (HP)
Battle Axe 106-116
Magnificent Axe 116-124
Caliph Sabre 124-present (125)

I got the Magnificent Axe and Caliph Sabre early at nice discounted prices, so I'm kind of guessing on exactly when I got the Magnificent Axe.
Holy War: W1 EN noble fighter [RO] (Christian), W4EN Nobility [Aloha] (Pagan), W6 EN Mr Credit Card (Christian), W8 EN Noble [BS] (Pagan)
Tagoria: W1 EN The Redeemer, W3 EN Noble
AI Wars: W1 EN Nobility